Thank you so much for being with us here
at Wired Science.
>> Well, thank you for having me.
>> Uh I need to first lay uh a little bit
of a foundation here. Two days into your
physics program at Stanford University,
you quit school to start a company
called Zip2, a media company.
>> Right.
>> Uh which you sold a few years later for
a paltry $307 million.
Then 4 years later, um eBay buys PayPal.
Is that correct? A company that you
established or helped to establish as
one of the creators.
>> few others, yeah.
>> Um and now you've taken [clears throat]
those two enormous successes and you've
set your ambition on space.
How did you go from online payment
systems to building a spaceship,
essentially?
>> Well, uh
when I graduated from college, there
were three areas that I thought would be
most impactful to the future of
humanity. The three were the internet,
space exploration, and uh and and then
changing the economy from a mine and
burn hydrocarbon-based economy to one
which is solar electric, which I think
is going to be the primary but not
exclusive uh means of uh energy and
transportation.
>> Have we screwed it up so badly here on
this planet that our only hope is to
build a new civilization out there?
>> No, not at all. I actually I'm quite I'm
quite optimistic about the future of
humanity on Earth.
>> You are?
>> Yeah, absolutely.
>> So, what is the benefit to humanity then
to inhabit Mars, which is really what is
an ambition of yours?
>> Well, I think if you consider two paths,
one where we're forever confined to
Earth and the other where we're
space-faring civilization uh out
exploring the stars, I think the latter
is far more exciting um and will result
in a a richer and and more diverse
uh human experience.
>> How can you do that better
uh than NASA?
>> Well, uh well, for you know, NASA is a
customer of ours. So, there's a I think
a confusion in the public mind that that
perhaps a company like SpaceX is
competing with NASA, but but in fact,
NASA is a customer of ours. So, we're
actually
uh providing services to NASA, launch
services. Uh and when when the shuttle
retires in 2010, uh so, starting in
2011, uh SpaceX's uh
rocket will replace the space shuttle in
servicing the space station with
astronauts and uh and cargo
transportation.
>> The name of your rocket ship is called
the Falcon Explorer. Is that it?
>> Well, the Falcon 9.
>> The Falcon 9. Is is it a
>> And and then the space the spaceship is
Dragon.
>> Dragon.
>> Yeah, so the Falcon 9 rocket lifts the
Dragon spaceship and the Dragon
spaceship is what goes to the space
station and then returns to Earth.
>> So it transports the Falcon as almost
cargo then?
>> So yeah, the Falcon 9 is kind of like
the the semi
>> Okay.
>> something like that.
And it it it trans it the Falcon 9
booster rocket takes the Dragon
spaceship to space and drops it off.
>> Mhm.
>> Then it goes to the space station, but
docks with the space station, uh
transfers astronauts or resupply you
know cargo, whatever whatever the case
may be, and then the Dragon spacecraft
uh returns to Earth.
>> I'm
reading some of the speeches that you
have given in your your career and how
you're
you're practically 23 years you're 23
years old, is that it?
>> I'm actually 12.
>> You're 12. I was going to say, you look
terrific. But you have said that we got
lost along the way with our space
program. What did you mean by that?
>> Right, I think I think I that was uh in
some of my congressional testimony. I I
I gave a few speeches to to Congress.
Well, what I mean by that is in 1969, we
were able to go to the moon. And here we
are over three decades later and we can
barely get to low Earth orbit. And I
think by any measure that is a step
backwards.
>> Is that for a lack of leadership or
technology?
>> I think we made the wrong technological
choices and I think there was also a
lack of
uh will at the at the the highest levels
of government to take the next step and
and uh go go well, at least go at least
stay on the moon and perhaps build a
base there and then go beyond the moon
to Mars. And if you look at the the news
articles in the late '60s, early '70s,
the expectation uh was that that by now
in in the 21st century, we would have a
moon base and probably even a Mars base.
>> Mhm.
>> Uh and and I think if you'd asked anyone
at that point in time whether we would
be unable to go to the moon and have no
not have been to to Mars, I think they
would they would think you're crazy.
>> Do we need a leadership in that realm?
Do we need a John F. Kennedy who sets a
goal for us when he said one one day a
man will walk on the moon? Do we need
that kind of leadership for this
technology to move forward in that big
step?
>> I do think it's it's very important the
president set the the the priority and
and and determine the the goal
you know that that we as a nation will
will aspire to. And uh
you know George Bush has his plusses and
minuses
but at least one plus is that he he has
helped us to steer the space program in
a direction that that more or less makes
sense.
You know the only thing I would I would
sort of argue with is that I don't think
we should be going back to the moon. I
think we should be focused on Mars. I
think we saw the
>> You think that's a mistake focusing on
the moon?
>> I do think I do think we should rather
go I think we should rather be focused
on on Mars.
You know the moon is kind of like
it's kind of like the Arctic. I mean
it's just it's just a very barren place
and
very very little resources. It's small.
It's not it's not really a place that we
could establish another
human civilization.
>> There's a there's a there's a feeling of
been there done that too with the moon.
>> Yeah, I think we saw that movie in the
60s. You know the remake is never as
good.
>> Did we really go to the moon?
>> Uh yes I'm yes we we definitely went to
the
>> wanted to check.
>> [laughter]
>> The government is incapable of of
suppressing a conspiracy of that nature.
>> Of that nature. So okay, good.
this ambition to explore space.
>> Absolutely. There's that
>> entrepreneur. There's there's quite a
bit of competition out there. There's
Jeff Bezos with Blue Origin, there's
Richard Branson with his Virgin
Galactic.
>> Right.
>> Um and I'm not talking about NASA
either. There's Paul Allen, uh there's
the European Space Agency and Boeing and
Lockheed Martin, the Chinese, the
Russians.
Let's just throw all of them into the
same
competitive field. How is SpaceX
different? How do you I you'll sort of
uh surpass them.
>> Well,
you know, you you've you've listed a a
wide range of of entities there and I
think the differences are uh
really different depending upon which
one you're referring to. The uh
>> Well, let me ask you this question. Who
is your competition?
>> We have no serious competition.
>> None?
>> Not presently.
>> Who's chasing you?
>> Well,
if you mean chasing and have and has a
serious chance of catching, then I I
think none that I'm aware of.
Uh
>> So, you're saying Branson guy is kind of
a hack, then?
>> Well, what [clears throat] what uh
Branson is doing, by the way, I'm a
great admirer of Branson, uh
is really um a much smaller
technological challenge. So, their craft
would be suborbital.
Uh so, it would go to about Mach 3. Uh
our craft is orbital. It goes to Mach
25, so 25 times the speed of sound. But,
that doesn't describe the whole scale of
difficulty because the the energy
required to get those velocities it
scales as the square of the velocity, so
to do what Branson is doing, you need
say about nine units of energy. To do
what we're doing, you need 625 units of
energy. The difference is monumental. Uh
and then when you reenter, you have to
you have to burn off all that energy.
So, uh so, that doubles the problem,
really. So, you know, what Branson is
doing from a technological standpoint is
building something that can cross the
the English Channel. What we're building
is something that can circumnavigate the
globe. It's a very different
uh scale of of of technological
difficulty. I still think what he's
doing is great. And by the way, I bought
a ticket on on his effort. Uh yeah,
yeah. So, I I still think it's great,
but it's not it's not in the same league
technologically.
>> So, you're not particularly worried?
>> Certainly not about No, no, certainly
not about that, no. I I The things that
worry me are
Are we going to make a mistake? Are we
The the the the the things that can
really hurt SpaceX are I mean, we our
own foolishness.
Uh our own errors can can hurt us, but
not none of the competition that I'm
aware of.
>> Mhm. So, generally, you're worried about
what's in front of you, not not the
other guy. In fact, you probably don't
think about them in terms of the how
they criticize you or what they think
about you.
>> I don't think actually I don't think uh
there's much criticism. I mean, Boeing
and Lockheed, of course, that they would
criticize, but I don't think any of the
entrepreneurial guys would criticize
what we're doing. Um
and it's certainly possible I think, you
know, what what Jeff Bezos is working on
could ultimately I mean, he does have
aspirations to get to orbit and beyond.
It's just that what they're doing right
now is suborbital and at at the sort of
lower technology level. What I think
about it at SpaceX is really entirely
what what what are we doing to ensure
that our rocket is is going to be
successful and that we are truly
optimizing the the cost and ensuring a
higher liability. I mean, that's just a
very very difficult problem. There's a
reason why there's an idiomatic
expression about rocket science being
hard.
It really is really hard.
>> So, rocket science [clears throat]
really is rocket science.
>> Yeah.
>> [laughter]
>> It looks hard and it's harder than it
looks.
>> What's the big goal here? What's the
long-term plan?
>> Well, the long-term ultimate objective,
the the holy grail is we would like to
help make life multi-planetary. That's
really what we would like to do.
>> So, establish
societies on as many planets as
possible?
>> Uh
well, yeah. I think there's only one
possibility, but yeah. I mean, even if
we can just go from one planet to two, I
think that's a pretty big step.
>> And you'll start with
>> Well, Mars. Mars is the only viable
>> viable planet. So, multi-planetary life.
>> Yeah.
It's help make life multi-planetary. I
think that's an important thing.
>> I don't think your goal's big enough.
>> Ha.
Yeah?
>> It's ambitious.
>> Well, like I said, we're not don't
expect to do it single-handedly, but we
certainly would like to help make it
happen.
>> It's fair to say you've made a fortune.
>> Yeah, I think so by any reasonable
standard, yeah.
>> And, you know, those who work in science
probably understand your trajectory, but
there are those who are watching who
would think if I made that money, I'd
sit on a beach, I'd drink beer, and I
would just watch the sunset. Kind of
like a Corona beer commercial. Have you
ever thought about that as a career
option?
>> Uh you know, I find that really pretty
boring. So, that would be torture if I
had to do that every day, that would
really be pretty awful for me.
>> Is there something about startup
businesses that that that really fuels
your desire to work?
>> Well, I guess
I I I I really need to be preoccupied
with something. Uh and I if if I'm just
sort of sitting there relaxing, I can
only do that for a very short period of
time, and then it becomes unbearable.
Um although startups definitely have
their highs and lows. There's a friend
of mine who has a good phrase, uh you
know, a startup business is like eating
glass and staring into the abyss.
>> What is the criteria that you establish
for yourself for a startup?
>> You mean why one business over another?
>> Yeah.
>> Well, I for me it's always about does
this does what I'm doing matter? If if
we are successful, uh does does it
matter to the world? And uh so, there
are easier ways to make money than
starting a rocket company or a say a car
company.
>> Mhm.
>> Um or even when I started an internet
company cuz when I started the first
internet company, uh
nobody had made any money, and it wasn't
clear that anyone would make any money.
Uh it was simply from the perspective of
the internet being a very important
thing and something that needed to be
built, and so I wanted to help build it.
>> Well, you touch upon something that's
interesting is that there is a
that benefiting humanity is a very
integral part of your criteria, no
matter what you're starting up.
>> Yes, absolutely.
>> Really? Not everybody has that as a
prime interest, most people.
>> I I think that's that's probably
relatively unusual. Although I there are
many people that I know in Silicon
Valley for whom that is a significant
motivation.
>> You said in your endeavor here to
explore space that we are committed to
failing in a new way, if nothing else.
What did you mean by that? Just just
just how it sounds?
>> Well,
I mean, we're we're I mean, we're
committed to succeed, really, but
[laughter]
uh but if we do fail, uh
I would hope that we at least add to the
body of knowledge such that those who
follow may make few mistakes.
>> Mhm.
Uh now, if Mars were not enough,
uh you you are busy here on Earth.
>> The world is not enough.
>> That's right for you.
>> [laughter]
>> Where where what have you no limits, my
friend? Uh
here on Earth you are establishing uh a
presence, certainly, uh with Tesla
Motors. And tell tell us a little bit
about that. This is your electric car
company, correct?
>> Right.
>> is no this is no hybrid car you could
buy on a car lot. This thing goes from
zero to 60 in 4 seconds. Is that right?
>> Yes, absolutely. Zero to 60 in under 4
seconds. It's faster It better
acceleration than any uh Porsche
currently in production and any Ferrari
except the Enzo.
Um and it's uh twice the energy
efficiency of a Prius.
So, it's uh you really have uh the moral
high ground and uh you get to you know,
leave uh the Ferrari guy in your dust.
So,
>> Well, let me ask
let me ask the obvious. Well, and you
don't look like one of those guys who's
trying too hard in a Ferrari.
>> Absolutely.
>> Yeah. Um or
>> You don't look like a jerk, you know?
So,
>> [laughter]
>> You're not bright banana yellow uh
Lamborghini or or or Ferrari.
>> Absolutely. I mean, there's something I
should point out about Tesla, which is
uh
we didn't you know, Tesla as first car
is is a sports car not because we think
the world likes for a sports car, uh but
because it is the right entry point for
the market. If you have a new
technology, the right place to enter is
high unit cost, low unit volume. Uh just
as you know, when when a when a new cell
phone come out comes out or a new
uh a new laptop or or some some new
thing, uh it tends to be expensive at
first uh because that they're figuring
out all the issues and that takes time
to optimize. And then over time that
that technology will become uh
cheaper and cheaper. And so, the Model 2
of of Tesla uh and maybe I'm leaping
ahead here, but Model 2 of Tesla is a
$49,000 four-door, five-passenger sedan.
Um and that's uh that's going to be
obviously a much broader market segment
uh that that that can make use of that
car. And then Model 3 is intended to be
around a $30,000 price point, Uh and so
that's that's really affordable by by
almost everyone
who's who's who's going to buy a new
car. So, the idea is to drive to mass
market as rapidly as possible, but only
at the pace at which the technology
matures. So.
>> Is Henry Ford an
someone you admire?
>> Well, I think Henry Ford made some very
important contributions to to business
and you obviously you know, moving
moving manufacturing line and that sort
of thing. So, I think he certainly
worthy of admiration. He was a bit of an
oddball, but you know,
certainly
noteworthy. But
the interest in Tesla is is not from the
perspective of you know, the world needs
another car company. It's more from the
perspective of we have a very important
environmental problem that needs to be
addressed, which is driven by the the
burning of fossil fuels and the
increasing CO2 concentration in the
atmosphere and and global climate
change, which I think is going to be one
of the most significant issues of of the
21st century. And the only way to to
really get around that in my view is is
is really with an electric vehicle. And
then you need to pair that up with
a a zero emission power generation
method such as solar power. I think it's
solar power is going to be a really big
deal.
>> Tesla is not a hybrid car.
>> Tesla Tesla is pure electric.
>> Pure electric. So, help connect the dots
for me. Why aren't we seeing Tesla cars
on the car lots then? What's
>> We haven't made them yet. So, the the
it's we're just finishing up the
development right now.
>> And anybody can buy this?
>> Yes.
>> How will you
>> we've almost sold out of 2007
production. So, if somebody does want to
buy next year's model, they they better
act quickly.
>> One of the primary complaints about
hybrid vehicles is they're not fast
enough. You seem to overcome that.
>> You won't have any trouble with this.
In fact, really it's
there's something
uniquely better about electric vehicles,
which is that the torque response is
immediate. So, if you want to pass
someone, you I mean, you just
the response of the car is is is very
immediate. It's just it's more fun to
drive an electric car
than it is to drive a gasoline car.
>> You know, I was going to say that Tesla,
the car, the name of the car company is
no coincidence, is it? Explain a little
bit about that.
>> Right. The The company's named after
Nikola Tesla, who is an inventor. He was
originally from
the sort of the area of of Yugoslavian
Europe, but he moved to America when he
was young, and
and it and was an inventor of the the AC
induction motor, invented a a lot of the
principles of magnetism.
So, he was a great man, a great great
inventor,
and the so the company's named in honor
of him.
>> Mhm.
>> So, these cars, the Tesla Roadster, the
first the first issue of the Tesla
Roadster, available in 2007?
>> Yes.
>> In the spring? The summer? How do you
get on the waiting list?
>> Well, you you you buy the car. You you
basically put down a deposit. And and
we've actually
>> Can you do that through the web?
>> Yeah. We'll have, by the way, customer
centers all around the country. So,
we'll have one in LA, one in the Bay
Area, Chicago, Miami, New York,
and eventually nationwide customer
centers where somebody does want to see
the car in person, take a test drive, or
see the car being worked on. I mean, we
have this idea for the way that the cars
are serviced that it should be a really
pleasant experience. So, we have, you
know, some some some somewhere between
like a Starbucks and an Apple store. So,
you go in and you'd see the car being
car's being worked on behind a glass
partition. That would be your car you're
watching.
>> Yeah, or somebody else's. Yeah. But,
it's really clean. It's really clean,
pleasant, bright. You know, there'd be
sort of a
you know, coffee bar available. You
know, just a We really want to have a
very pleasant experience that that you
don't typically get if you go into a
dealership.
>> Have you heard from Toyota? Have you
heard from General Motors and Ford
saying uh
is the company for sale?
>> No Nobody's actually made a formal
offer, but the interest you know, I
think
one of the one of the biggest values
that that Tesla can can can provide is
serving as an example to the rest of the
auto industry industry because right now
the auto industry you know, the big car
companies believe that A
a viable electric vehicle is not
possible, and B if even if it was,
people wouldn't buy it. So, we need to
show that that neither of those are
true, that the technology works, that
people want to buy it, and and that will
be the most effective way of
of really driving change in the in the
auto industry is by serving as an as an
example in that matter. And if we were
to sell the company to one of the one of
the big car companies, I think it would
really slow things down.
>> Mhm. You think so?
>> Absolutely.
>> Mhm. You're very busy enterprising the
part of your company that will explore
space. You're very busy with this car
company.
Where do you find time to be CEO of two
companies that size?
>> Well, I should correct you that I'm CEO
of of SpaceX.
Uh I'm I'm chairman CEO of SpaceX and
that is really my day job. So, I spend
80% of my time on SpaceX.
>> Okay.
>> I'm the chairman and the the principal
owner of Tesla Motors, uh but I do not
run it on a daily basis.
>> You don't run that on a daily basis.
>> No.
>> Well, that was really the question was
how do you do How do you run those two
large enterprises on a daily basis?
>> I I
>> a couple of phone calls to the Tesla
folks? How's it going? I'm busy with
outer space right now. You guys got that
covered?
>> spend about I spend about two two to
three days a month on Tesla-related
business and almost all the rest of the
time is on SpaceX. So, SpaceX is very
much my my day-to-day job.
>> Mhm.
>> Um and then I provide uh product
guidance, strategic guidance, um and and
obviously funding for for Tesla.
>> Like Steve Jobs, right? So, he runs
Apple on a daily basis, but he also
you know, has uh
oversight over Pixar. It's It's kind of
like that.
>> Mhm. And in your day-to-day and and this
is this is one of those silly lifestyle
questions, but how early do you get up
in the morning?
And where do you go to work physically?
Is it an office?
>> Yeah. I I go to work at SpaceX. So, the
SpaceX
>> get up in the morning?
>> You know, I'm not an early morning
person. Uh so,
>> You So, for young like for young
engineers and for inventors and
creators, they can sleep until 10:00 or
11:00.
>> We have no fixed hours at SpaceX. Uh and
I mean, my personally, I would I tend to
get up around 7:30 or 8:00 and be in the
office around
you know, 9:00, 9:30. Uh but then I tend
to stay till about till about 8:00 p.m.
>> Okay. College students across America
are saying, "Oh, drats. I thought he was
going to say like noon." But then you go
into an office and you you sit with uh
in a separate office away from those who
are working or do you sit with them?
>> I
>> just have a cubicle in at SpaceX.
>> You have a cubicle?
>> Yeah.
>> And are you surrounded by your
colleagues there?
>> What is your hope in terms of the impact
you will leave on culture, this
civilization, this world, global
civilization? What is it that you you
hope to leave here?
>> Well, I think what I'd like to do is
help solve some important problems. So,
I I think in a in a small way,
uh I helped build the internet, uh and
and then with respect to the the global
warming problem, that the transition
from from uh away from oil and other
hydrocarbons to to something which is
clean and sustainable, uh I hope to have
an impact there. And then uh with
respect to space, I hope to have an
impact in
uh helping make humanity a multi-planet
species.
>> Elon Musk, thank you so much for being
with us at Wired Science. So, uh let me
get it straight, CEO of SpaceX and
chairman of Tesla Motors.
>> Yeah, I got other titles, but that's
about that's about right.
>> I think that you're doing pretty good. I
think you've done very well.