Thank you so much for being with us here<br>at Wired Science.<br>>> Well, thank you for having me.<br>>> Uh I need to first lay uh a little bit<br>of a foundation here. Two days into your<br>physics program at Stanford University,<br>you quit school to start a company<br>called Zip2, a media company.<br>>> Right.<br>>> Uh which you sold a few years later for<br>a paltry $307 million.<br>Then 4 years later, um eBay buys PayPal.<br>Is that correct? A company that you<br>established or helped to establish as<br>one of the creators.<br>>> few others, yeah.<br>>> Um and now you've taken [clears throat]<br>those two enormous successes and you've<br>set your ambition on space.<br>How did you go from online payment<br>systems to building a spaceship,<br>essentially?<br>>> Well, uh<br>when I graduated from college, there<br>were three areas that I thought would be<br>most impactful to the future of<br>humanity. The three were the internet,<br>space exploration, and uh and and then<br>changing the economy from a mine and<br>burn hydrocarbon-based economy to one<br>which is solar electric, which I think<br>is going to be the primary but not<br>exclusive uh means of uh energy and<br>transportation.<br>>> Have we screwed it up so badly here on<br>this planet that our only hope is to<br>build a new civilization out there?<br>>> No, not at all. I actually I'm quite I'm<br>quite optimistic about the future of<br>humanity on Earth.<br>>> You are?<br>>> Yeah, absolutely.<br>>> So, what is the benefit to humanity then<br>to inhabit Mars, which is really what is<br>an ambition of yours?<br>>> Well, I think if you consider two paths,<br>one where we're forever confined to<br>Earth and the other where we're<br>space-faring civilization uh out<br>exploring the stars, I think the latter<br>is far more exciting um and will result<br>in a a richer and and more diverse<br>uh human experience.<br>>> How can you do that better<br>uh than NASA?<br>>> Well, uh well, for you know, NASA is a<br>customer of ours. So, there's a I think<br>a confusion in the public mind that that<br>perhaps a company like SpaceX is<br>competing with NASA, but but in fact,<br>NASA is a customer of ours. So, we're<br>actually<br>uh providing services to NASA, launch<br>services. Uh and when when the shuttle<br>retires in 2010, uh so, starting in<br>2011, uh SpaceX's uh<br>rocket will replace the space shuttle in<br>servicing the space station with<br>astronauts and uh and cargo<br>transportation.<br>>> The name of your rocket ship is called<br>the Falcon Explorer. Is that it?<br>>> Well, the Falcon 9.<br>>> The Falcon 9. Is is it a<br>>> And and then the space the spaceship is<br>Dragon.<br>>> Dragon.<br>>> Yeah, so the Falcon 9 rocket lifts the<br>Dragon spaceship and the Dragon<br>spaceship is what goes to the space<br>station and then returns to Earth.<br>>> So it transports the Falcon as almost<br>cargo then?<br>>> So yeah, the Falcon 9 is kind of like<br>the the semi<br>>> Okay.<br>>> something like that.<br>And it it it trans it the Falcon 9<br>booster rocket takes the Dragon<br>spaceship to space and drops it off.<br>>> Mhm.<br>>> Then it goes to the space station, but<br>docks with the space station, uh<br>transfers astronauts or resupply you<br>know cargo, whatever whatever the case<br>may be, and then the Dragon spacecraft<br>uh returns to Earth.<br>>> I'm<br>reading some of the speeches that you<br>have given in your your career and how<br>you're<br>you're practically 23 years you're 23<br>years old, is that it?<br>>> I'm actually 12.<br>>> You're 12. I was going to say, you look<br>terrific. But you have said that we got<br>lost along the way with our space<br>program. What did you mean by that?<br>>> Right, I think I think I that was uh in<br>some of my congressional testimony. I I<br>I gave a few speeches to to Congress.<br>Well, what I mean by that is in 1969, we<br>were able to go to the moon. And here we<br>are over three decades later and we can<br>barely get to low Earth orbit. And I<br>think by any measure that is a step<br>backwards.<br>>> Is that for a lack of leadership or<br>technology?<br>>> I think we made the wrong technological<br>choices and I think there was also a<br>lack of<br>uh will at the at the the highest levels<br>of government to take the next step and<br>and uh go go well, at least go at least<br>stay on the moon and perhaps build a<br>base there and then go beyond the moon<br>to Mars. And if you look at the the news<br>articles in the late '60s, early '70s,<br>the expectation uh was that that by now<br>in in the 21st century, we would have a<br>moon base and probably even a Mars base.<br>>> Mhm.<br>>> Uh and and I think if you'd asked anyone<br>at that point in time whether we would<br>be unable to go to the moon and have no<br>not have been to to Mars, I think they<br>would they would think you're crazy.<br>>> Do we need a leadership in that realm?<br>Do we need a John F. Kennedy who sets a<br>goal for us when he said one one day a<br>man will walk on the moon? Do we need<br>that kind of leadership for this<br>technology to move forward in that big<br>step?<br>>> I do think it's it's very important the<br>president set the the the priority and<br>and and determine the the goal<br>you know that that we as a nation will<br>will aspire to. And uh<br>you know George Bush has his plusses and<br>minuses<br>but at least one plus is that he he has<br>helped us to steer the space program in<br>a direction that that more or less makes<br>sense.<br>You know the only thing I would I would<br>sort of argue with is that I don't think<br>we should be going back to the moon. I<br>think we should be focused on Mars. I<br>think we saw the<br>>> You think that's a mistake focusing on<br>the moon?<br>>> I do think I do think we should rather<br>go I think we should rather be focused<br>on on Mars.<br>You know the moon is kind of like<br>it's kind of like the Arctic. I mean<br>it's just it's just a very barren place<br>and<br>very very little resources. It's small.<br>It's not it's not really a place that we<br>could establish another<br>human civilization.<br>>> There's a there's a there's a feeling of<br>been there done that too with the moon.<br>>> Yeah, I think we saw that movie in the<br>60s. You know the remake is never as<br>good.<br>>> Did we really go to the moon?<br>>> Uh yes I'm yes we we definitely went to<br>the<br>>> wanted to check.<br>>> [laughter]<br>>> The government is incapable of of<br>suppressing a conspiracy of that nature.<br>>> Of that nature. So okay, good.<br>this ambition to explore space.<br>>> Absolutely. There's that<br>>> entrepreneur. There's there's quite a<br>bit of competition out there. There's<br>Jeff Bezos with Blue Origin, there's<br>Richard Branson with his Virgin<br>Galactic.<br>>> Right.<br>>> Um and I'm not talking about NASA<br>either. There's Paul Allen, uh there's<br>the European Space Agency and Boeing and<br>Lockheed Martin, the Chinese, the<br>Russians.<br>Let's just throw all of them into the<br>same<br>competitive field. How is SpaceX<br>different? How do you I you'll sort of<br>uh surpass them.<br>>> Well,<br>you know, you you've you've listed a a<br>wide range of of entities there and I<br>think the differences are uh<br>really different depending upon which<br>one you're referring to. The uh<br>>> Well, let me ask you this question. Who<br>is your competition?<br>>> We have no serious competition.<br>>> None?<br>>> Not presently.<br>>> Who's chasing you?<br>>> Well,<br>if you mean chasing and have and has a<br>serious chance of catching, then I I<br>think none that I'm aware of.<br>Uh<br>>> So, you're saying Branson guy is kind of<br>a hack, then?<br>>> Well, what [clears throat] what uh<br>Branson is doing, by the way, I'm a<br>great admirer of Branson, uh<br>is really um a much smaller<br>technological challenge. So, their craft<br>would be suborbital.<br>Uh so, it would go to about Mach 3. Uh<br>our craft is orbital. It goes to Mach<br>25, so 25 times the speed of sound. But,<br>that doesn't describe the whole scale of<br>difficulty because the the energy<br>required to get those velocities it<br>scales as the square of the velocity, so<br>to do what Branson is doing, you need<br>say about nine units of energy. To do<br>what we're doing, you need 625 units of<br>energy. The difference is monumental. Uh<br>and then when you reenter, you have to<br>you have to burn off all that energy.<br>So, uh so, that doubles the problem,<br>really. So, you know, what Branson is<br>doing from a technological standpoint is<br>building something that can cross the<br>the English Channel. What we're building<br>is something that can circumnavigate the<br>globe. It's a very different<br>uh scale of of of technological<br>difficulty. I still think what he's<br>doing is great. And by the way, I bought<br>a ticket on on his effort. Uh yeah,<br>yeah. So, I I still think it's great,<br>but it's not it's not in the same league<br>technologically.<br>>> So, you're not particularly worried?<br>>> Certainly not about No, no, certainly<br>not about that, no. I I The things that<br>worry me are<br>Are we going to make a mistake? Are we<br>The the the the the things that can<br>really hurt SpaceX are I mean, we our<br>own foolishness.<br>Uh our own errors can can hurt us, but<br>not none of the competition that I'm<br>aware of.<br>>> Mhm. So, generally, you're worried about<br>what's in front of you, not not the<br>other guy. In fact, you probably don't<br>think about them in terms of the how<br>they criticize you or what they think<br>about you.<br>>> I don't think actually I don't think uh<br>there's much criticism. I mean, Boeing<br>and Lockheed, of course, that they would<br>criticize, but I don't think any of the<br>entrepreneurial guys would criticize<br>what we're doing. Um<br>and it's certainly possible I think, you<br>know, what what Jeff Bezos is working on<br>could ultimately I mean, he does have<br>aspirations to get to orbit and beyond.<br>It's just that what they're doing right<br>now is suborbital and at at the sort of<br>lower technology level. What I think<br>about it at SpaceX is really entirely<br>what what what are we doing to ensure<br>that our rocket is is going to be<br>successful and that we are truly<br>optimizing the the cost and ensuring a<br>higher liability. I mean, that's just a<br>very very difficult problem. There's a<br>reason why there's an idiomatic<br>expression about rocket science being<br>hard.<br>It really is really hard.<br>>> So, rocket science [clears throat]<br>really is rocket science.<br>>> Yeah.<br>>> [laughter]<br>>> It looks hard and it's harder than it<br>looks.<br>>> What's the big goal here? What's the<br>long-term plan?<br>>> Well, the long-term ultimate objective,<br>the the holy grail is we would like to<br>help make life multi-planetary. That's<br>really what we would like to do.<br>>> So, establish<br>societies on as many planets as<br>possible?<br>>> Uh<br>well, yeah. I think there's only one<br>possibility, but yeah. I mean, even if<br>we can just go from one planet to two, I<br>think that's a pretty big step.<br>>> And you'll start with<br>>> Well, Mars. Mars is the only viable<br>>> viable planet. So, multi-planetary life.<br>>> Yeah.<br>It's help make life multi-planetary. I<br>think that's an important thing.<br>>> I don't think your goal's big enough.<br>>> Ha.<br>Yeah?<br>>> It's ambitious.<br>>> Well, like I said, we're not don't<br>expect to do it single-handedly, but we<br>certainly would like to help make it<br>happen.<br>>> It's fair to say you've made a fortune.<br>>> Yeah, I think so by any reasonable<br>standard, yeah.<br>>> And, you know, those who work in science<br>probably understand your trajectory, but<br>there are those who are watching who<br>would think if I made that money, I'd<br>sit on a beach, I'd drink beer, and I<br>would just watch the sunset. Kind of<br>like a Corona beer commercial. Have you<br>ever thought about that as a career<br>option?<br>>> Uh you know, I find that really pretty<br>boring. So, that would be torture if I<br>had to do that every day, that would<br>really be pretty awful for me.<br>>> Is there something about startup<br>businesses that that that really fuels<br>your desire to work?<br>>> Well, I guess<br>I I I I really need to be preoccupied<br>with something. Uh and I if if I'm just<br>sort of sitting there relaxing, I can<br>only do that for a very short period of<br>time, and then it becomes unbearable.<br>Um although startups definitely have<br>their highs and lows. There's a friend<br>of mine who has a good phrase, uh you<br>know, a startup business is like eating<br>glass and staring into the abyss.<br>>> What is the criteria that you establish<br>for yourself for a startup?<br>>> You mean why one business over another?<br>>> Yeah.<br>>> Well, I for me it's always about does<br>this does what I'm doing matter? If if<br>we are successful, uh does does it<br>matter to the world? And uh so, there<br>are easier ways to make money than<br>starting a rocket company or a say a car<br>company.<br>>> Mhm.<br>>> Um or even when I started an internet<br>company cuz when I started the first<br>internet company, uh<br>nobody had made any money, and it wasn't<br>clear that anyone would make any money.<br>Uh it was simply from the perspective of<br>the internet being a very important<br>thing and something that needed to be<br>built, and so I wanted to help build it.<br>>> Well, you touch upon something that's<br>interesting is that there is a<br>that benefiting humanity is a very<br>integral part of your criteria, no<br>matter what you're starting up.<br>>> Yes, absolutely.<br>>> Really? Not everybody has that as a<br>prime interest, most people.<br>>> I I think that's that's probably<br>relatively unusual. Although I there are<br>many people that I know in Silicon<br>Valley for whom that is a significant<br>motivation.<br>>> You said in your endeavor here to<br>explore space that we are committed to<br>failing in a new way, if nothing else.<br>What did you mean by that? Just just<br>just how it sounds?<br>>> Well,<br>I mean, we're we're I mean, we're<br>committed to succeed, really, but<br>[laughter]<br>uh but if we do fail, uh<br>I would hope that we at least add to the<br>body of knowledge such that those who<br>follow may make few mistakes.<br>>> Mhm.<br>Uh now, if Mars were not enough,<br>uh you you are busy here on Earth.<br>>> The world is not enough.<br>>> That's right for you.<br>>> [laughter]<br>>> Where where what have you no limits, my<br>friend? Uh<br>here on Earth you are establishing uh a<br>presence, certainly, uh with Tesla<br>Motors. And tell tell us a little bit<br>about that. This is your electric car<br>company, correct?<br>>> Right.<br>>> is no this is no hybrid car you could<br>buy on a car lot. This thing goes from<br>zero to 60 in 4 seconds. Is that right?<br>>> Yes, absolutely. Zero to 60 in under 4<br>seconds. It's faster It better<br>acceleration than any uh Porsche<br>currently in production and any Ferrari<br>except the Enzo.<br>Um and it's uh twice the energy<br>efficiency of a Prius.<br>So, it's uh you really have uh the moral<br>high ground and uh you get to you know,<br>leave uh the Ferrari guy in your dust.<br>So,<br>>> Well, let me ask<br>let me ask the obvious. Well, and you<br>don't look like one of those guys who's<br>trying too hard in a Ferrari.<br>>> Absolutely.<br>>> Yeah. Um or<br>>> You don't look like a jerk, you know?<br>So,<br>>> [laughter]<br>>> You're not bright banana yellow uh<br>Lamborghini or or or Ferrari.<br>>> Absolutely. I mean, there's something I<br>should point out about Tesla, which is<br>uh<br>we didn't you know, Tesla as first car<br>is is a sports car not because we think<br>the world likes for a sports car, uh but<br>because it is the right entry point for<br>the market. If you have a new<br>technology, the right place to enter is<br>high unit cost, low unit volume. Uh just<br>as you know, when when a when a new cell<br>phone come out comes out or a new<br>uh a new laptop or or some some new<br>thing, uh it tends to be expensive at<br>first uh because that they're figuring<br>out all the issues and that takes time<br>to optimize. And then over time that<br>that technology will become uh<br>cheaper and cheaper. And so, the Model 2<br>of of Tesla uh and maybe I'm leaping<br>ahead here, but Model 2 of Tesla is a<br>$49,000 four-door, five-passenger sedan.<br>Um and that's uh that's going to be<br>obviously a much broader market segment<br>uh that that that can make use of that<br>car. And then Model 3 is intended to be<br>around a $30,000 price point, Uh and so<br>that's that's really affordable by by<br>almost everyone<br>who's who's who's going to buy a new<br>car. So, the idea is to drive to mass<br>market as rapidly as possible, but only<br>at the pace at which the technology<br>matures. So.<br>>> Is Henry Ford an<br>someone you admire?<br>>> Well, I think Henry Ford made some very<br>important contributions to to business<br>and you obviously you know, moving<br>moving manufacturing line and that sort<br>of thing. So, I think he certainly<br>worthy of admiration. He was a bit of an<br>oddball, but you know,<br>certainly<br>noteworthy. But<br>the interest in Tesla is is not from the<br>perspective of you know, the world needs<br>another car company. It's more from the<br>perspective of we have a very important<br>environmental problem that needs to be<br>addressed, which is driven by the the<br>burning of fossil fuels and the<br>increasing CO2 concentration in the<br>atmosphere and and global climate<br>change, which I think is going to be one<br>of the most significant issues of of the<br>21st century. And the only way to to<br>really get around that in my view is is<br>is really with an electric vehicle. And<br>then you need to pair that up with<br>a a zero emission power generation<br>method such as solar power. I think it's<br>solar power is going to be a really big<br>deal.<br>>> Tesla is not a hybrid car.<br>>> Tesla Tesla is pure electric.<br>>> Pure electric. So, help connect the dots<br>for me. Why aren't we seeing Tesla cars<br>on the car lots then? What's<br>>> We haven't made them yet. So, the the<br>it's we're just finishing up the<br>development right now.<br>>> And anybody can buy this?<br>>> Yes.<br>>> How will you<br>>> we've almost sold out of 2007<br>production. So, if somebody does want to<br>buy next year's model, they they better<br>act quickly.<br>>> One of the primary complaints about<br>hybrid vehicles is they're not fast<br>enough. You seem to overcome that.<br>>> You won't have any trouble with this.<br>In fact, really it's<br>there's something<br>uniquely better about electric vehicles,<br>which is that the torque response is<br>immediate. So, if you want to pass<br>someone, you I mean, you just<br>the response of the car is is is very<br>immediate. It's just it's more fun to<br>drive an electric car<br>than it is to drive a gasoline car.<br>>> You know, I was going to say that Tesla,<br>the car, the name of the car company is<br>no coincidence, is it? Explain a little<br>bit about that.<br>>> Right. The The company's named after<br>Nikola Tesla, who is an inventor. He was<br>originally from<br>the sort of the area of of Yugoslavian<br>Europe, but he moved to America when he<br>was young, and<br>and it and was an inventor of the the AC<br>induction motor, invented a a lot of the<br>principles of magnetism.<br>So, he was a great man, a great great<br>inventor,<br>and the so the company's named in honor<br>of him.<br>>> Mhm.<br>>> So, these cars, the Tesla Roadster, the<br>first the first issue of the Tesla<br>Roadster, available in 2007?<br>>> Yes.<br>>> In the spring? The summer? How do you<br>get on the waiting list?<br>>> Well, you you you buy the car. You you<br>basically put down a deposit. And and<br>we've actually<br>>> Can you do that through the web?<br>>> Yeah. We'll have, by the way, customer<br>centers all around the country. So,<br>we'll have one in LA, one in the Bay<br>Area, Chicago, Miami, New York,<br>and eventually nationwide customer<br>centers where somebody does want to see<br>the car in person, take a test drive, or<br>see the car being worked on. I mean, we<br>have this idea for the way that the cars<br>are serviced that it should be a really<br>pleasant experience. So, we have, you<br>know, some some some somewhere between<br>like a Starbucks and an Apple store. So,<br>you go in and you'd see the car being<br>car's being worked on behind a glass<br>partition. That would be your car you're<br>watching.<br>>> Yeah, or somebody else's. Yeah. But,<br>it's really clean. It's really clean,<br>pleasant, bright. You know, there'd be<br>sort of a<br>you know, coffee bar available. You<br>know, just a We really want to have a<br>very pleasant experience that that you<br>don't typically get if you go into a<br>dealership.<br>>> Have you heard from Toyota? Have you<br>heard from General Motors and Ford<br>saying uh<br>is the company for sale?<br>>> No Nobody's actually made a formal<br>offer, but the interest you know, I<br>think<br>one of the one of the biggest values<br>that that Tesla can can can provide is<br>serving as an example to the rest of the<br>auto industry industry because right now<br>the auto industry you know, the big car<br>companies believe that A<br>a viable electric vehicle is not<br>possible, and B if even if it was,<br>people wouldn't buy it. So, we need to<br>show that that neither of those are<br>true, that the technology works, that<br>people want to buy it, and and that will<br>be the most effective way of<br>of really driving change in the in the<br>auto industry is by serving as an as an<br>example in that matter. And if we were<br>to sell the company to one of the one of<br>the big car companies, I think it would<br>really slow things down.<br>>> Mhm. You think so?<br>>> Absolutely.<br>>> Mhm. You're very busy enterprising the<br>part of your company that will explore<br>space. You're very busy with this car<br>company.<br>Where do you find time to be CEO of two<br>companies that size?<br>>> Well, I should correct you that I'm CEO<br>of of SpaceX.<br>Uh I'm I'm chairman CEO of SpaceX and<br>that is really my day job. So, I spend<br>80% of my time on SpaceX.<br>>> Okay.<br>>> I'm the chairman and the the principal<br>owner of Tesla Motors, uh but I do not<br>run it on a daily basis.<br>>> You don't run that on a daily basis.<br>>> No.<br>>> Well, that was really the question was<br>how do you do How do you run those two<br>large enterprises on a daily basis?<br>>> I I<br>>> a couple of phone calls to the Tesla<br>folks? How's it going? I'm busy with<br>outer space right now. You guys got that<br>covered?<br>>> spend about I spend about two two to<br>three days a month on Tesla-related<br>business and almost all the rest of the<br>time is on SpaceX. So, SpaceX is very<br>much my my day-to-day job.<br>>> Mhm.<br>>> Um and then I provide uh product<br>guidance, strategic guidance, um and and<br>obviously funding for for Tesla.<br>>> Like Steve Jobs, right? So, he runs<br>Apple on a daily basis, but he also<br>you know, has uh<br>oversight over Pixar. It's It's kind of<br>like that.<br>>> Mhm. And in your day-to-day and and this<br>is this is one of those silly lifestyle<br>questions, but how early do you get up<br>in the morning?<br>And where do you go to work physically?<br>Is it an office?<br>>> Yeah. I I go to work at SpaceX. So, the<br>SpaceX<br>>> get up in the morning?<br>>> You know, I'm not an early morning<br>person. Uh so,<br>>> You So, for young like for young<br>engineers and for inventors and<br>creators, they can sleep until 10:00 or<br>11:00.<br>>> We have no fixed hours at SpaceX. Uh and<br>I mean, my personally, I would I tend to<br>get up around 7:30 or 8:00 and be in the<br>office around<br>you know, 9:00, 9:30. Uh but then I tend<br>to stay till about till about 8:00 p.m.<br>>> Okay. College students across America<br>are saying, "Oh, drats. I thought he was<br>going to say like noon." But then you go<br>into an office and you you sit with uh<br>in a separate office away from those who<br>are working or do you sit with them?<br>>> I<br>>> just have a cubicle in at SpaceX.<br>>> You have a cubicle?<br>>> Yeah.<br>>> And are you surrounded by your<br>colleagues there?<br>>> What is your hope in terms of the impact<br>you will leave on culture, this<br>civilization, this world, global<br>civilization? What is it that you you<br>hope to leave here?<br>>> Well, I think what I'd like to do is<br>help solve some important problems. So,<br>I I think in a in a small way,<br>uh I helped build the internet, uh and<br>and then with respect to the the global<br>warming problem, that the transition<br>from from uh away from oil and other<br>hydrocarbons to to something which is<br>clean and sustainable, uh I hope to have<br>an impact there. And then uh with<br>respect to space, I hope to have an<br>impact in<br>uh helping make humanity a multi-planet<br>species.<br>>> Elon Musk, thank you so much for being<br>with us at Wired Science. So, uh let me<br>get it straight, CEO of SpaceX and<br>chairman of Tesla Motors.<br>>> Yeah, I got other titles, but that's<br>about that's about right.<br>>> I think that you're doing pretty good. I<br>think you've done very well.