So, where should we begin?<br>[Music]<br>As a therapist, I'm often asked, "Do you<br>ever tell people get out?" Well, this<br>episode is called run.<br>She didn't ask me whether to stay or to<br>leave. But as I'm listening, it became<br>clear to me that this is a person who<br>because of her longing and yearning for<br>connection, for not being alone, for<br>having someone who walks the life with<br>her and takes care of her, is willing to<br>go and lock herself up in a box after<br>she has just traveled the whole world to<br>express her freedom and her desire for<br>exploration. And I just thought this is<br>one of those times where I cannot just<br>listen and not say anything. So I said<br>what I had to say.<br>My boyfriend and I have been together<br>for about 4 months. We come from very<br>different backgrounds. He is Mexican and<br>I am South African. I am living and<br>working in Mexico. And although I<br>believe jealousy is important in a<br>relationship, it challenges a<br>relationship in a healthy way, I have<br>come to know that he is possessive.<br>And this is a very big concern for me<br>because we have our future planned<br>and we have had many arguments around<br>this topic. And I think that this is<br>going to be a recurring argument in our<br>future. And I want to approach him about<br>my concerns.<br>[Music]<br>If you have had many arguments already<br>in the first four months, you have<br>already approached him with your<br>concerns.<br>Yes. and he has approached me with his<br>um with regards to well I've approached<br>him regards to I think it's a trait of<br>possessiveness<br>and he he doesn't seem to believe so he<br>kind of does like I had to kind of<br>Google it to show him like this is how I<br>feel you know this is what<br>possessiveness means to me um and what I<br>see is happening so<br>we have spoken since that recording. I<br>don't think it's 100% resolved because<br>what he has asked of me is to delete<br>ex-boyfriends that I have on my phone<br>that I have made friends with over the<br>years since those relationships ended<br>and also to unfollow them on Instagram.<br>And<br>it's been it's been a difficult one for<br>me because I have established a<br>friendship with him. Not that we talk<br>every day or stay in contact every day,<br>but the fact that I have cultivated a<br>friendship after the the relationships,<br>he doesn't seem to understand or like<br>this idea and wants me to delete these<br>people off my phone and not have contact<br>with him at all. So, yeah, this is the<br>difficult part for me to kind of accept.<br>Mhm. Mhm. Maybe before we plunge into<br>the challenges, tell me a little bit<br>about the relationship.<br>Um, I'm a teacher and I'm at an English<br>school here in Mexico teaching Spanish<br>students. I met him here at the school.<br>We are the same age. Um,<br>we have known each other for a little<br>while, but we started talking more often<br>about five months ago now. And we have a<br>lot of respect for one another. We have<br>a lot of love for one another. We get<br>along really well. We laugh a lot. We<br>share a lot. But we've had our<br>challenges, including this this one. Um,<br>and what to share? What else you would<br>like to know? Um um what drew you to<br>each other? What drew us to each other?<br>In what ways are you from very different<br>cultures besides I mean I know the names<br>of the cultures but how are those<br>differences manifesting for you? How do<br>they draw you closer and how do they<br>create surprise and how do they create<br>conflict<br>and how do you deal with those<br>differences? Because right it's not in<br>the difference itself. It's the<br>emotional<br>resonance that these differences bring<br>up, including what you call<br>possessiveness, which he calls what?<br>When you had to Google the term for him,<br>you had different names for them. So,<br>what did he call this?<br>Respect. Res Well, no, I don't know if<br>it's respect. He He sees it as wanting<br>all of me and he doesn't really want to<br>accept my past. It hurts him. He says,<br>"My past hurts him." Um, even though<br>it's my past and I, you know, there's<br>not much I can do to change it. And he<br>thinks that because I've held on to the<br>past, well, that I have these contacts<br>on my phone that this is going to be the<br>the end of our relationship one day,<br>that one of these guys might swoop in<br>and twist me away. This is his<br>imagination. And I don't see it like<br>that. Like I I want to spend my life<br>with him. I have chosen this with him.<br>We have spoken about many things about<br>our future and<br>with regards to our cultures coming from<br>a very conservative sort of culture. Can<br>I just ask in in what ways<br>does your past hurt him?<br>And how do you understand that?<br>Well, to put it maybe bluntly, um,<br>that's how you be with me. Okay, I'll be<br>bluntly then. Um, he wanted to know my<br>my sexual past. Um, yes, of course.<br>That's the one we talk about. I'm quite<br>open and honest with him about things<br>that he asks me. I mean, I don't think I<br>have anything to hide. And I had told<br>him, you know, who was in my past, who<br>were Yeah. the men that were in my past<br>and the sexual relationships that I've<br>had. And he didn't like that it was a<br>number higher than his.<br>What did that mean? What did that mean<br>that you had more sexual experiences or<br>sexual partners than his meant? What? I<br>don't know if it's means that I had more<br>experience than him. I think it's the<br>fact that<br>he feels like that I have given a lot of<br>myself to other men as opposed to him<br>which<br>makes me feel really bad. It kind of<br>makes me feel ashamed in some way. Um<br>which I shouldn't be. I don't know if<br>that answers your question.<br>Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Um, it doesn't<br>answer it, but it's a beginning for us<br>to think together about your situation.<br>But you were beginning to say, I grew up<br>in a conservative. Yes. A conservative<br>country in South Africa. The biggest<br>difference I'm seeing between the two<br>cultures is that the the Mexicans or the<br>Latinos or Latinos, they love drama.<br>They um very expressive and they're also<br>very passionate people as opposed to<br>South Africans are a little bit more<br>conservative. They kind of keep opinions<br>to themselves. The challenges within our<br>relationship is that because he's a<br>Mexican man. He likes to be in control<br>of certain things. He likes to be the<br>provider. He likes to be the the bread<br>winner. Um this is very strong in his<br>culture. Very masculine energy coming<br>through. And I have I'm a bit of a free<br>spirit. So I'm an artist. So I think<br>being controlled in some way is quite<br>opposite of what I would like sometimes<br>like you know I'm a bit more impulsive<br>where he's a little bit more um more<br>objective and thinks things through. I<br>don't know if that's a a man thing or a<br>female thing or a Mexican thing but we<br>have recognized these two different<br>things in our relationship as well. He<br>does come from a military background. So<br>he has that in him as well where it's<br>very, you know, straightforward<br>like um being in control and taking<br>control of the situation in a difficult<br>situation and thinking objectively and<br>clear-headedly and not getting emotions<br>involved where I'm the complete opposite<br>of that. So yeah, I I think it's<br>cultural and also our backgrounds are<br>different. I'm more of the artist and he<br>is more of the the military guy. And<br>what draws you to him about that?<br>What's the parts of his rationality,<br>control, organization, order?<br>Um, I like that he is provider.<br>I actually like that he's a provider<br>because I've always provided for myself.<br>I've always kind of stood on my own two<br>feet and kind of um gone through life on<br>my own accord. So having someone sort of<br>provide for me and wanting to take care<br>of me is something I'm allowing and<br>letting in and accepting. And it feels<br>quite good to be honest to kind of allow<br>someone else to do that for me and not<br>just not only rely on myself. But what<br>draws me to him,<br>I think it's probably my father was also<br>in the military and they do have a<br>certain poise. They have certain loyalty<br>that they have. They are very um direct<br>where maybe I'm a little bit up in the<br>clouds. They can be a little bit more<br>streamlined and a little bit more direct<br>with certain things. And I kind of like<br>that about him as well. And he has<br>taught me some valuable lessons as well<br>when it comes to<br>certain aspects of life that I've never<br>seen it in that light and you would kind<br>of bring those things to light and I'm<br>like okay that's an interesting<br>perspective so like what um so when when<br>we have an argument for me what I<br>generally do um I kind of I have you<br>know the fight or flight aspect I have<br>the flee I want to flee I want to get<br>away but he's one that would stand and<br>you know just continue talking and try<br>and work through it even if we get angry<br>or even if we get upset with one<br>another. The other day when we had an<br>argument, I was still very upset about<br>something and he just gave me this hug<br>and he just held me tight and he's like,<br>I'm angry but it doesn't mean that I<br>don't want to be here with you. I am<br>holding you and I want to be here. So<br>this this is interesting for me because<br>I don't I normally just want to run away<br>and he's like even if you are angry you<br>can still stay and still communicate and<br>you don't have to run away. You don't<br>have to feel like you need to get away<br>from that. So that's that's an example a<br>good example of what I mean.<br>And if I asked him what draws him to<br>you, since he likes clear structures and<br>he likes to know he's the man<br>and it comes with certain ideas about<br>what masculinity is.<br>And a woman that has had many other men<br>makes him less of a man. And he may ask<br>you to delete them on on Instagram, but<br>that doesn't mean you don't think about<br>them and they don't live inside of you.<br>And he may ask you if he's as good a<br>lover as them.<br>Does he do that?<br>Um, no. He hasn't asked in a specific<br>way like that. Maybe he's thought about<br>it, but no, he hasn't asked in that way.<br>But there's a part of him that thinks<br>that a woman has had as many men as you<br>have. Whatever the number is, it's<br>irrelevant<br>more than him. That's what matters here.<br>Basically, she did something wrong.<br>That's why the shame is creeping up on<br>you. Mhm. What you thought was just a<br>part of your lifestyle has now become<br>something that cheapens you. Mhm. Okay.<br>So then what's the draw for him?<br>Because you're going to need to remember<br>that both of you<br>that the same things that are drawing<br>you together at this moment are also<br>going to be from day one because these<br>things have appeared pretty much on day<br>one.<br>You're a very young couple.<br>So this has been with you from the<br>beginning. Some people say your<br>arguments you will know them on day two<br>and from then on they will accompany you<br>through life.<br>So there's the parts of this<br>that you will find he's principled, he's<br>loyal, he stays put, he doesn't run away<br>when it gets challenging.<br>And that same set of attributes will<br>then be seen as he's controlling,<br>he's principled, and therefore he will<br>continue to talk about it until he has<br>made his point and I've basically said,<br>"You're right.<br>He will remind me of my checkered past,<br>so to speak.<br>And he will make me constantly wonder if<br>I am trespassing and crossing boundaries<br>and acting inappropriately<br>every time he feels insecure.<br>And there probably will be a little bit<br>of both, sometimes and sometimes not.<br>But all of this I know from the start.<br>So what's his draw? Because I would say<br>the same thing to him if he was here.<br>And I would say remember this because<br>everything you're putting down is part<br>of what has also drawn you to her.<br>Um I think what has drawn him to me is<br>um<br>is probably my outer beauty first<br>from the stories that he told me like<br>you know coming to the school and hoping<br>to see me and to have some sort of<br>interaction with me. I don't know. He he<br>says that<br>he is just it feels like it feels like<br>infatuation as well. Um that he has had<br>for me, but now it's become a little bit<br>more than that, getting to know me more.<br>He's drawn to my outer beauty. He's now<br>drawn to my inner beauty. He he wrote me<br>a love letter and said said things like<br>he loves the way I I flavor food. He<br>says he loves how I paint and how I'm an<br>artist.<br>Oh, there's so many things he said. He<br>loves to watch my eyes. Um, he loves to<br>look at them. He loves my hair and my<br>ears. He loves the way I see the world<br>and how I view the world in in my own<br>lens. And that he always that he's<br>always looking forward to seeing me. It<br>was really special love letter to be<br>honest. Um,<br>so yeah, there's there's a lot that he<br>sees in me.<br>Your question is what to do with what I<br>see.<br>Your question is can I live with this?<br>Your question is what?<br>Because you're not going to change him.<br>No. Exactly. Um and I don't want to<br>change him either. You know, I don't<br>that's something that I am looking for<br>is to change him. But I want him to be<br>able to to trust me and know that I am<br>in this 100% planning our future<br>together. Me having now decided to<br>continue living in Mexico and also when<br>he's pursuing his dream and working<br>around the world that I will be joining<br>him. You know, it's it's I have made<br>this very big decision<br>not to live back in South Africa<br>but to be with him but at the same time<br>he is unsure about our future. Um he's<br>unsure because of my past.<br>He is unsure<br>of your future because of your past.<br>Please tell me more.<br>um because of my relationships with with<br>men in the past because I've had more<br>sexual relationships than him and<br>because what to him<br>what are we saying exactly be going to<br>go back to the word you used before be<br>blunt<br>okay<br>he thinks that I will be disloyal to um<br>that I would cheat on him basically. Um<br>he thinks this he thinks that if I stay<br>in contact with these ex-boyfriends that<br>there will be some communication and<br>then one day I will leave him and go to<br>someone else or I will cheat on him. And<br>this is just so far from the truth. Has<br>that happened? No. To you in other<br>relationships?<br>No, it hasn't. I've I've lived many<br>lives. I've had many different um<br>occupations, but I'm I want to change<br>that. I want a different future. I want<br>to have a partner, a life partner. And<br>but does he have ground to think I mean,<br>is there a history of cheating or<br>betrayal or disloyalty or is there a<br>history of a woman who has been free<br>spirited and who has lived them many<br>lives? But each of them with integrity.<br>Mhm. No. No. Um there hasn't been any of<br>Well, the there has been integrity in my<br>past. I haven't cheated on anyone.<br>Okay. I've also made it clear that if<br>there are problems within our<br>relationship, I would rather talk about<br>it as opposed to trying to find it with<br>another man or I just I I don't think<br>that's true to who I am. I'd rather try<br>and sort it out and if it can't be<br>sorted out. If we do have to split up,<br>it would be with regards to between him<br>and I. It wouldn't be because of<br>external<br>people. And does he think that the<br>problem is your past or does he also ask<br>himself whether what has now been<br>defined as the problem of your past may<br>lie with him as well? or is it just you?<br>I think with him as well there there is<br>another aspect to our relationship that<br>I haven't mentioned that might be<br>important. Mhm. It's probably as<br>important. Okay. But um it is a decision<br>that I've made. Um we have spoken many<br>times about it. So it's not it's not<br>okay. Let me just say it what it is. Um<br>he um he is married and he has a child<br>but their agreements before they got<br>married was that they can both find<br>partners with outside the marriage. It<br>was more a marriage of convenience or<br>financial. So now the plot thickens.<br>Yes, it definitely does. All right.<br>We've um we've spent too much time<br>without knowing this. So tell me how<br>does this enter your relationship?<br>Sorry. Yeah, I I wasn't sure if I wanted<br>to bring that up or not. Um but maybe it<br>is important. Um<br>yes, he is married. Um and he has a<br>one-year-old.<br>They entered the the marriage um out of<br>convenience, out of financial<br>convenience and not out of being<br>together out of like love or I guess<br>there's love and respect between the two<br>of them, but they're not they won't be<br>spending their future together<br>basically. Um he's there to financially<br>support them, him and his mother-in-law<br>and brother-in-law. But when I say<br>support, I mean financially. So this is<br>what he's brought into the relationship.<br>I have known about this from the start.<br>So it's not something that he has hid<br>from me. We have spoken about this many<br>times. His wife knows about me. Um<br>yeah.<br>And the other people, do they all know<br>about you?<br>His wife does. Yes. Um, his<br>mother-in-law has an inkling about it.<br>She doesn't know 100%, but she has some<br>some idea that there is someone else.<br>Um, and the brother-in-law, I don't<br>think so.<br>And<br>his wife understands that you are what?<br>Who?<br>Um, that we are in a serious<br>relationship. She does know my name<br>where I work. Um, and we haven't met,<br>but she does know of me.<br>And how does this shape your<br>relationship<br>in many ways? In many ways, we do want a<br>future together, him and I. Um, we are<br>planning our future together. He would<br>like to have more children and have<br>those children with me as well, but a<br>divorce with his wife is out of the<br>question.<br>And I think why it's so difficult for me<br>to coming back to the initial problem<br>the you know deleting my ex-boyfriends<br>off my phone is that he Yes. Yes. Yes.<br>Say it first. Yes. He he will have a<br>connection with his wife forever. Um but<br>I I can't have a number on my phone with<br>an ex-boyfriend. And what do you think<br>about all of that? This this is where I<br>have had difficulty with this and this<br>is why we have had many arguments about<br>it because and I keep bringing this up.<br>I'm like you still have a wife but I<br>can't have any ex-boyfriends on my phone<br>but you have you can keep in contact<br>with her every day. He can get to see<br>his daughter whenever he wants and<br>rightfully so. I mean they it's his<br>daughter. I won't wouldn't want him to<br>you know to not have a relationship with<br>her. But it has been difficult because<br>he is still connected to his wife in a<br>big way. Um,<br>and this is why I've had a problem<br>deleting these numbers to be honest.<br>Well,<br>you're being very moderate.<br>I mean,<br>there is a whole lot of family. Yeah.<br>There is people who don't know about you<br>or they kind of know you exist but you<br>know there is basically a ceiling above<br>you because I don't know if marriage<br>matters to you or not but there will<br>never be such a thing. Mhm. There is a<br>profound asymmetry.<br>A profound asymmetry.<br>Yeah. I need, I have, you should.<br>And you've been arguing since the<br>beginning.<br>No sooner has he met you that he's<br>already putting his conditions.<br>Mhm.<br>The big word conditions. Yes. Okay. I'm<br>sorry.<br>I understand<br>the the caretaking.<br>And I'm sure if he can take care of his<br>mother-in-law, his brother-in-law who<br>will be dependent on him forever and his<br>wife that you know that there's a lure<br>for you or finally someone who takes<br>care of me. I've had to do it all by<br>myself. I'm so tired of being on my own.<br>Here's a real guy who's going to show<br>up. But the conditions.<br>Yeah.<br>Yes. Yes. The conditions. I'm sorry. I'm<br>really I I<br>um I can see the beautiful love letter,<br>the hair, the eyes, the the the lure and<br>the whole thing.<br>But this is not just a love story you're<br>aiming for. You're choosing a life<br>story.<br>Yeah. I mean, we are we looking for an<br>apartment to live in. Um doesn't matter.<br>The conditions won't change.<br>Can we clarify the conditions please? Um<br>the conditions as in he won't get<br>divorced and well the conditions start<br>with you need to tailor yourself to what<br>I think is palatable.<br>You need to make sure that I don't have<br>to feel any insecurity on the risk that<br>you could have an affair on me while I<br>just had one on my own wife.<br>Mhm. However, we call it not, you know,<br>baby's a year old. So, it's not like<br>they're<br>the convenience came when exactly.<br>You met him when the baby was six, seven<br>months old. So, it's like something<br>doesn't click. You know,<br>you should make sure that I cannot ever<br>think you can betray me in any way<br>whatsoever.<br>You are too much of a free woman for me.<br>But I am having an affair on my wife.<br>To whom I've told what exactly?<br>I will forever be there for you. I will<br>take care of you. I'm just going to go<br>and have my romantic love somewhere<br>else. And I'm going to install the<br>oldest system of wife and mistress.<br>I'll have kids with both. and I'll take<br>care of both families<br>as long as you know what you're doing.<br>I have I have known what I've been<br>doing. You understand? I mean, this<br>comes this is an old system. You're not<br>you're you're not creating something new<br>or or original. This is the old system<br>and you will feel taken care of with<br>conditions. Mhm.<br>Beholden and responsible for him to not<br>have to necessarily<br>take responsibility for what for his<br>part in these stories.<br>So that he's the upstanding citizen and<br>you're the<br>So you tell me<br>what is drawing you to this because who<br>came before what are the hurts you carry<br>that you are allowing this to become the<br>box you want to live in<br>I'm being really blunt as well because<br>we have one hour together and you're not<br>going to make this guy less jealous or<br>less possessive or less controlling or<br>less suffocating.<br>Mhm. There's a lot of big words after 4<br>months. Yeah. What are you doing?<br>What are you bringing with you that you<br>are willing to forgo?<br>Your better sense, your home, your<br>roots, your past, your story to enter<br>into which quagmire?<br>I I have asked myself this question too.<br>Okay. I just I hope you're not hearing<br>me disrespectfully. I'm saying this with<br>utter respect, but you seem to have had<br>some life experience and and you're<br>walking into an absolute mess. Mhm. I<br>don't know. Sometimes he makes it sound<br>so easy. Mhm.<br>You know, just making everything sort of<br>black and white like<br>we are planning our future together.<br>we will live in a different state in a<br>different country as opposed to his wife<br>and daughter.<br>I have had many questions that I would<br>ask him and he would always have an<br>answer. So the assurityity always seems<br>to be there. So I find myself you know<br>just accepting or like you know kind of<br>agreeing or like okay you know there<br>have been other things that have come up<br>and that I would ask him about and he is<br>more than willing to to talk it out and<br>to speak about it and I have my concerns<br>like what um if I may ask<br>well you know if we do live in a<br>different state because he is aiming to<br>be a pilot commercial pilots. So, we<br>would live in different states, but if<br>he doesn't see his daughter, how would<br>we plan around that? How would you get<br>to see your daughter as well as, you<br>know, your own kids with me if we had to<br>do that? And you're flying for many days<br>at a time or many hours.<br>How do you juggle everything? How do you<br>juggle two families that that you have?<br>And how does he respond?<br>You know, it's interesting. He brings up<br>loyalty quite often. He's like, he says<br>he's loyal to his family and he is<br>showing loyalty to me by doing this um<br>by you know like if he comes back home<br>then he would buy a flight ticket for<br>his wife and his daughter to come visit<br>or he would go to the state that they<br>live in and and I'm like we haven't even<br>met um I haven't even met his wife. Mhm.<br>And there's a lot of unanswered<br>questions. A lot of questions have come<br>up. A lot of questions have been asked,<br>but it's still very unsure because we we<br>really haven't found ourselves in in<br>those situations. So, there's a lot of<br>hearsay.<br>Um, and he answers you in ways that put<br>you to sleep.<br>They lull you.<br>Can you say more, please? It's false<br>reassurances.<br>Mhm. on stuff he has no idea about<br>with principles. I'm loyal. I'm this<br>will figure it out.<br>Every problem has a solution. Mhm.<br>Yeah. There's no 100% assurityity.<br>But I'm actually<br>I'm really asking you because I don't<br>know anything about you or your past or<br>what you bring or who have been the<br>relationships before or who's the family<br>that is left in South Africa. But<br>there's something as you said when we<br>have an argument my tendency is to run<br>away and you are as far from South<br>Africa as can be. So you are a runaway<br>and you are running away and you are<br>entering somebody else's life story<br>jumping in with two feet abdicating your<br>own story your own life and I would love<br>to know a little bit more about that<br>because<br>there is a feeling when you tell this<br>story of I am running away from my own<br>entering someone else's a little bit<br>scared about what's lies there. But he<br>just says, "It'll be okay.<br>I'll take care of you. I love the spices<br>you put in the food."<br>And I am allowing myself to be totally<br>transported and I become a little girl<br>so eager to be taken care of that I am<br>not seeing anything.<br>I think I have said quite a bit that it<br>always comes back to the same the same<br>thing<br>like you say I'm maybe being lulled.<br>Mhm. Even though I am saying things I am<br>raising concerns.<br>Mhm. Well, my background, my mother and<br>I have had a difficult relationship<br>since I was a child. My father and I are<br>quite close. Um, but I know he wasn't<br>around much when I was a kid. He's a<br>pilot, too. No, my father is engineer<br>figuratively.<br>Well, he lives in Vietnam, so yeah, he<br>Yes. Um,<br>meaning he he was also gone.<br>Yeah. Yeah. He he was so he was the<br>pilot.<br>Yes.<br>Um<br>I've had an interesting background<br>African family but went to an English<br>school. So I have a different set of<br>cultures within me um internally and<br>externally with you know friends and<br>family. I have worked as a graphic<br>designer and I have traveled the world<br>on a cruise ship working on a cruise<br>ship and now I'm in Mexico teaching<br>English.<br>How old are you if I may ask?<br>I'm 38. Mhm.<br>And you're a little bit tired of being<br>unmed.<br>Uhhuh. I I know what I want for my<br>future, but I'm also tired of being<br>alone and not having a partner, doing it<br>on my own. Um<br>I want to build memories with someone<br>and<br>I I can see that with him. But yes,<br>unfortunately this<br>this very heavy<br>heavy topic is is always there. Um<br>I think I'm very patient<br>with him and his mother-in-law and his<br>brother-in-law and his wife who will<br>forever be his wife and his daughter.<br>You think you're going to be less alone?<br>and him flying.<br>Yes. Yes. Of course. I forgot. I forgot<br>the piece.<br>Maybe you should all gather together,<br>all of you.<br>This is This is what I would love,<br>Esther. Like, I would love to meet them<br>and kind of, you know, make myself seen.<br>And why is he taking care of all these<br>people? Do we know that?<br>His wife lost her father a couple of<br>years ago and<br>he has always looked out for her and<br>she depends on him. Yeah. Yes, she does.<br>So he doesn't have to worry of the<br>possibilities of her predatoriness.<br>Yeah, I think so. I mean they both they<br>both can have a relationship outside<br>their marriage but from what it sounds<br>like um she is not interested because I<br>think her daughter is a priority<br>but I often wonder like what would<br>happen if she does find someone how<br>would he feel about that<br>she seems to be okay with me she seems<br>to be says he says he says he everything<br>you know is says<br>Mhm.<br>I just have to trust what he says.<br>Yeah, that's this comes back to the<br>initial thing like I don't know how I<br>can delete people from my life when<br>someone in his life is will always be<br>there.<br>If I may,<br>if these people have really become your<br>friends and they are your circle and<br>some of them at least are part of your<br>support system wherever they are strewn<br>across the globe regardless of his being<br>married or not.<br>meeting someone, you're gonna hear my<br>bias now. And within x amount of weeks,<br>asking them<br>to basically cut off, it's not delete,<br>it's cut off contact. Mhm. With the<br>people of your life<br>is a bold ask<br>and one that I'm not sure I would<br>suggest you trust.<br>On what basis?<br>He feels certain. Well, I suppose<br>that may be a feeling he has to address.<br>But to ask that from someone you just<br>met and he probably asked it to you<br>after a few weeks.<br>Mhm.<br>I like you, but I need you to rearrange<br>the pieces a little bit. Do some editing<br>for me. Take away some of the parts that<br>make me uncomfortable.<br>And I mean I'm I'm curious about his<br>request, but I'm particularly curious<br>about your willingness to even consider<br>it. Well, up until<br>like recently,<br>I have refused.<br>I have<br>kind of pushed back and said, "No,<br>that's not something I would do." But<br>then of course, it would be a recurring<br>thing and a recurring problem that would<br>come up. Yeah. But you know what? If you<br>do it, that will leave you very much in<br>a vulnerable and threatened position.<br>Yeah, that's how I feel too. Okay. So, I<br>think I've answered your question. Mhm.<br>I mean, I didn't answer your question<br>the way you asked it to me, but I think<br>I'm I'm<br>being quite transparent about how I'm<br>registering Mhm. the choice you're about<br>to make. Yeah.<br>No, I hear you. And I know that you may<br>come home tonight and he will give you<br>the lulling reassurances again,<br>which your heart is aching to hear.<br>Your heart doesn't want to hear what I'm<br>saying.<br>Yeah. Thank you. You understand? But<br>you'll have to if you want to follow<br>that, that's that's your choice, too.<br>But you will have to remember<br>what you were willing to accept and to<br>do and how could you.<br>Yeah,<br>I still Yeah, I still haven't deleted<br>these numbers because I feel once I do I<br>will be in a very very vulnerable<br>situation. Of course, he will isolate<br>you from the rest of the world. He will<br>make you dependent on him too. Mhm. And<br>I would say to you, you didn't run away<br>from South Africa and travel the globe<br>to create yourself another cage. Yeah,<br>it's a very good point.<br>I understand that you say, "I don't want<br>to do it alone anymore. I want someone<br>by I I I have<br>complete complete empathy for that. But<br>this is not the same." Yeah, I don't<br>think so either.<br>Why do we like people that<br>because I do like him?<br>There is a lot about him that I like.<br>You can like people. If you can love<br>people, that doesn't mean you need to<br>make a life with people.<br>There are plenty of people we love, but<br>we should not be partnered with them.<br>Mhm. Because at first when someone says,<br>"I want you to delete the people that<br>you slept with so that I can feel like<br>I'm less number 10 and I can feel more<br>manly and I don't have to feel like<br>you're used goods." And we interpret<br>that as love. He must love me so much<br>that he wants me just for himself.<br>I'm so moved by his vulnerability, by<br>how hurt he would be to know that I have<br>loved and made love to other men before<br>him who may for that matter be better<br>lovers than him too on occasion.<br>And we interpret that as an expression<br>of love.<br>I think that's true. I don't know if<br>that's true for me. I found it quite<br>shocking when he first asked me. He<br>expected it of me first and then<br>he had to ask me and I still refused.<br>And so yeah, it's I don't think it is a<br>sign of love. The fact that he doesn't<br>think there's anything problematic with<br>the request is a big red light.<br>Mhm. It's preposterous. Yeah. But it's<br>traditional.<br>It belongs to a system. It's a system in<br>which control provides care.<br>Does control always provide care? Not<br>necessarily, right? No. The idea is<br>I will control and in return I will<br>provide and in return you will stay put.<br>Do you believe that love has a price?<br>In what sense?<br>That's a big question. What's the in<br>what way? No. Meaning as that you that<br>that's the price to pay for being with<br>him. No. No, I don't. Yeah. And but also<br>the family, you know, like to continue<br>with this relationship. There's a lot of<br>condition but it's a big price that I<br>think you're entering a quagmire<br>with someone<br>who is telling you you know I have the<br>wife that I told that we can be with<br>other partners but I am the only one who<br>will be with another partner because I<br>know for a fact that she wants the baby<br>and so I mean you're being told stories<br>one story after another<br>of which you have no way of knowing<br>what's behind<br>And who's behind?<br>You have a cast of characters of four<br>people that you're about to live with<br>for decades to come and you have no idea<br>who they are.<br>Would you do that with anything else?<br>It's like, what are you doing?<br>I said, what am I doing?<br>I'm sure there's plenty to like about<br>him and plenty to love about him, but<br>you're not a 22 year old woman either.<br>Yeah, I should know better, right?<br>I mean if the price of love as you call<br>it is to be controlled<br>is to live under conditions<br>is to be lulled and is to be presented<br>with an entire you know feta that's a<br>decision you make<br>I don't often make<br>statements like the ones I just made I<br>am and I'm may be off.<br>Um, but<br>I'm also<br>following my intuition and my<br>decades of experience. I mean, I'm often<br>asked, do you ever tell someone not to<br>or to leave or to not? And this is one<br>of those times when I'm listening to<br>this and I'm just the free bird who<br>traveled the globe to do what she wants<br>because she's tired of being told and<br>who had to run as far from mom as can be<br>to then find herself<br>willingly entering a cage. Yeah.<br>Now I feel like a bird in a cage. That's<br>when I'm saying what is happening? I<br>mean I know what is happening. I'm tired<br>of being alone. And he's there and he's<br>he shows up in beautiful ways and all of<br>that.<br>But I would not move on to the next<br>phase without having some clarity over<br>who are the other birds in the cage.<br>Mhm. As you say, I have to delete and<br>cut off from people who are essential<br>pillars of my life<br>to live with someone who has an entire<br>family that I have no idea who at what.<br>Excuse me.<br>It is a bold ask. Okay.<br>How does this land on you?<br>It's landed.<br>it has landed as the um<br>it it's interesting because I haven't<br>been able to speak about this to anyone<br>because of the situation that I'm in.<br>So, it's nice to have a voice of reason<br>and someone I can sort of project on and<br>and you haven't been able to talk about<br>it because what<br>I don't think anyone would really<br>understand. They would judge you. Yeah,<br>probably. M. So there's now we have<br>shame not just about your past, but you<br>have shame about your present.<br>Yeah. Oh, no. Do not. No,<br>please. Yeah. Yeah. I said, I hear you.<br>Mhm. So, it's landed what you've said.<br>Thank you. Thank you for trusting me.<br>Good luck to you. Thank you very much.<br>Bye-bye.<br>[Music]<br>This was an Estair calling, a onetime<br>intervention phone call recorded<br>remotely from two points somewhere in<br>the world. If you have a question you'd<br>like to explore with Estair that could<br>be answered in a 40 or 50inute phone<br>call, send her a voice message and<br>Estster might just call you. Send your<br>question to producer eststerell.com.<br>Where should We begin with Estster Pell<br>is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're<br>part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in<br>partnership with New York Magazine and<br>The Cut. Our production staff includes<br>Eric Nam, Destri Sibi, Sabrina Farhey,<br>Kristen Muller, and Juliet. Original<br>music and additional production by Paul<br>Schneider. And the executive producers<br>of Where Should We Begin are Estster<br>Pell and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to<br>thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice<br>Miller, and Jack Saul.