Today's guest is uh well, dude's a<br>straightup tech lord, let's be honest.<br>He's uh he's one of the leaders, the<br>world leaders in the development of AI.<br>Um he started Open AI, which is known<br>for uh having chat GPT.<br>Uh we had a fascinating chat about the<br>pros and cons, um the fears and hopes,<br>everything I could learn about uh about<br>artificial intelligence and where we're<br>headed. TBD baby. Today's guest is Mr.<br>Sam Alman and I'm very thankful for his<br>time<br>[Music]<br>and I will find a song. I will sing it.<br>[Applause]<br>You know, we had a residential architect<br>do this office. We wanted it to feel<br>like someone's like really comfortable<br>like country house or something like<br>that.<br>Yeah. Not like the big corporate like<br>sci-fi castle.<br>Yeah, that's what I was I was like a<br>little bit like, oh, is it going to be,<br>you know, will there be a drawer bridge?<br>Will we be uploaded into a suite? Like<br>what will happen to us? You<br>don't want that. We going for like<br>residential.<br>Yeah. I was like, how do we even get<br>through the firewall? How many like hit<br>points will we need to get through? You<br>know, it got very Dungeons and Dragons<br>uh in some of my like um imagination<br>sometimes.<br>Yeah, we want people to feel like super<br>comfortable and tried to get pretty far<br>in that direction.<br>It feels like it. and your staff's very<br>sweet, nice people. Um, you have Thanks<br>for hanging out, man.<br>Absolutely. Thanks for appreciate it.<br>Uh, yeah, I haven't seen you since I<br>fell out of my chair.<br>Fell out of a chair at the inauguration.<br>That was really like quite a way to meet<br>you.<br>Yeah, I felt so embarrassed. And you<br>were one of the faces that I looked up<br>and saw and I was like, "God." And that<br>was my first moment like, "AI build us a<br>better chair to be honest with you."<br>You and you did nothing, right? You were<br>just sitting there and it just<br>collapsed. Nothing.<br>I remember that.<br>And it was just so embarrassing. I was<br>like, "Oh, of all people me and here I<br>am in this place." And uh<br>I think it was perfect because<br>everybody's got to have some sto when<br>people are like, "Oh, was the<br>inauguration?" Like, everybody's got to<br>have some story to tell.<br>Yeah.<br>And that was an incredible story for us<br>all to tell.<br>That's a good point. I do remember<br>looking at people for help, though. And<br>oddly, your eyes I I was like, "Oh my<br>god, he could help." You did look like a<br>beacon of help in the distance.<br>I tried to help.<br>Um<br>You have a baby. You have a new Yeah.<br>child. It is.<br>There have been like a lot of<br>experiences in life where everyone tells<br>you something's going to be great and<br>then it's like, okay, the people are<br>right, the consensus is right, it's like<br>even better than I thought it was going<br>to be. But this has been the strongest<br>example of that ever.<br>Like I knew it was going to be great and<br>it's like way way better. It's<br>impossible to describe. There's nothing<br>I can say that's not like very cliche<br>and it's totally amazing.<br>What is like one of your And it's a you<br>have a young boy. Yeah. And what's<br>something like that you think is like<br>neat or like what's one thing that kind<br>of like is bringing you joy with it?<br>Watching<br>the speed with which he like learns new<br>things or gains new capabilities. Yeah.<br>Is just unbelievable. It's like every<br>day it's like oh man<br>he just couldn't do that before and now<br>he's like grabbing stuff and passing it<br>between his hands and<br>uh getting to like<br>watch it dayto day is just an amazing<br>rate of change. And then I don't like<br>again I realize it's like<br>you know I realize that like everything<br>about babies are very finely tuned over<br>a long period of evolution to make us<br>like love them and be fascinated by them<br>and it's like a neurochemical hack. But<br>I love it. It's great. It's so strong.<br>It's so intense.<br>So it's really like almost like a coffee<br>for your heart or something kind of<br>I don't even know how to find I've tried<br>to like come up with an analogy to tell<br>because now I'm like telling everybody<br>you got to have a lot of kids. It's<br>really important.<br>Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.<br>And I've been looking for an analogy of<br>what to explain and and then I always<br>just say like I I don't know how to<br>explain this. It's just it is the best<br>thing I've ever done by far. I feel like<br>a completely changed person. And I was I<br>was like thinking the other day like<br>there used to be all these other like at<br>this point all I do is work and hang out<br>with my family. I like I don't<br>I don't like really get to do a lot of<br>hobbies anymore. It's busy time at work.<br>I don't get to hang out with my friends<br>that much. Uh<br>and I and I don't you know there were<br>like all these things where people tell<br>you like oh you got to baby come and you<br>got to go you know take that spontaneous<br>international trip because you're not<br>going to be doing that again for a long<br>time and I was like oh that is kind of<br>sad. In practice you don't do it that<br>often. I at least didn't do it that<br>often and I don't miss it at all. I like<br>remember that that used to be a<br>possibility. Now I can see that's not<br>going to be a possibility for a long<br>time and I'm thrilled with the trade.<br>You're moved on.<br>I'm so happy.<br>Um how old is your child?<br>Four months. Oh, that's a funny like at<br>five or six months they start to get<br>like fun and you can like they're still<br>like they can't go anywhere, you know,<br>but they're like intrigued and stuff.<br>They start to like smile or process<br>more. I don't know how you guys say it,<br>but um<br>yeah, he's totally like turned on<br>though, like really aware, understands<br>things. It's super cool.<br>I have a thought sometimes that this<br>will be one of the last like maybe 40<br>years that we conceive children in the<br>body. Did you have any thoughts about<br>that?<br>I've definitely heard a lot of people<br>say that. Um<br>I haven't thought about it hard myself,<br>but yeah, I guess it does make sense.<br>Like<br>I guess that does make sense.<br>Like God, you were in your mom's butt.<br>It's crazy. You know, you pervert or<br>whatever. Like like I think in the<br>future people will be it'll be kind of<br>done like in a<br>in a vet or something.<br>Yes. In like a nice vet. You can go see<br>it on the weekends or whatever. And like<br>doesn't that just feel like off to you?<br>Like I can totally intellectually like<br>understand that that may be the better<br>way to do it.<br>Oh yeah. It feels way off to me. I was<br>trying to I thought you would like it,<br>you know? I thought I thought<br>I mean<br>like or I thought you that would be like<br>a thought like I guess I like that for<br>me that's one of like my futuristic<br>thoughts, you know,<br>like I can totally accept that that will<br>be what everybody does and that it's,<br>you know, easier and we can like make it<br>healthier for the child and the mother,<br>you know, the mother doesn't take the<br>health risk. But man,<br>so intellectually I can say that and<br>then like emotionally it feels like ah<br>something is off of that. Yeah.<br>Oh yeah. Yeah. Cuz then the family like<br>on the weekends the parents would come<br>and like tinker on the glass or whatever<br>or the dad would put like a um you know<br>like a go falcon sticker on the thing or<br>you know what I'm saying? People would<br>like decorate it all up or write little<br>messages on there. Um,<br>you know, I think there's another like<br>another take I have on all of this is<br>that there in this world that we're<br>heading to of like crazy sci-fi<br>technology becoming reality, the the<br>sort of like the deeply human things<br>will become the most precious, sacred,<br>valued things<br>and that we'll really care about like<br>the human experience more than ever. And<br>maybe it won't go that way. I don't<br>know.<br>Yeah. Do you uh No. And that's some of<br>the stuff we want to talk about and<br>thanks thanks so much man for sitting<br>down. Um, do you think your child will<br>go to college? Do you think like what do<br>you kind of think that looks like?<br>Probably not. Um, if I had to guess,<br>like I I think Well, I only went to half<br>of college.<br>You You did you drop out?<br>Yeah,<br>dude. You guys all I freaking dropped<br>out. I didn't get [ __ ] You dropped out.<br>Wang dropped out. Zuckerberg dropped<br>out.<br>Um,<br>probably a lot of other people.<br>And you?<br>Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, hey, we're both<br>here, so<br>Oh, it worked out fine.<br>You're right. You know, you're right.<br>Never mind. I'm sorry. I'm being<br>self-defeating. Um, yeah. What does that<br>look like when you think about that?<br>Like, yeah, with AI, with so much new<br>information coming online, right? And so<br>much like data being collected and like<br>um information being uh carpooled and<br>and maybe which is a term.<br>So, you you and I never grew up in a<br>world that didn't have computers, right?<br>Like, and our parents were like, "Oh,<br>this there weren't computers." And then<br>there were and it was this big crazy<br>adjustment. It took them a long time to<br>figure it out. to us like computers just<br>always existed. They were just I mean<br>maybe they were kind of new but they<br>were always around<br>and and then like you know a kid that is<br>like<br>there was there was this video on<br>YouTube I saw like maybe 12 years ago<br>something like that that 14 years ago<br>that has really stuck with me. It was<br>like a little baby in a dentist waiting<br>room or something picking up one of<br>those old glossy magazines and going<br>like this.<br>Oh, I remember that. And to that kid, it<br>was just like a broken iPad because that<br>kid had just like grown up in a world<br>where like there were touchscreens<br>everywhere.<br>And my kid will never grow up will never<br>ever be smarter than an AI.<br>That will never happen. You know, kid<br>born a few years ago, they had a brief<br>period of time. My kid never will be<br>smarter.<br>But also,<br>they'll never they'll never know a world<br>where like products and services aren't<br>way smarter than them and and super<br>capable. they can just do whatever you<br>need. And in that world, I think<br>education's going to feel very<br>different. I already think college is<br>like maybe not working great for most<br>people, but yeah, I think fast forward<br>18 years, it's going to look like a<br>very, very different thing.<br>Yeah. Yeah. Do you think there Oh,<br>here's that video right here. This kid.<br>Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. I was wrong<br>about the dentist. It was Or maybe<br>there's a few of these.<br>He's like, "Somebody charged this<br>magazine." He's yelling. How would you<br>recommend to a parent right now to<br>prepare their children for like an AI<br>future kind of like are there certain<br>curtails that you would start to put in<br>now? Are there certain like um you know<br>adjustments where you like get them in a<br>certain training or have them start to<br>watch certain models of things online?<br>Like what does that you know<br>I I actually think the kids will be<br>fine. I'm worried about the parents.<br>Ah<br>if you look at the history of the world<br>here when there's new technology like<br>people that grow up with it they're<br>always fluent. They always figure out<br>what to do. They always learn the new<br>kind of jobs. But if you're like a<br>50-year-old<br>and you have to like kind of learn to do<br>things in a very different way, that<br>doesn't always work. Yeah.<br>So, I think the kids are going to be<br>fine. I mean, I do have worry like I do<br>have worries about kids in technology.<br>Like, I think this scrolling the kind of<br>like, you know, short video feed<br>dopamine hit, it feels like it's<br>probably messing with kids brain<br>development in a super deep way. So,<br>it's not that I have no worries. I have<br>like extremely deep worries about what<br>technology is doing to kids. But in<br>terms of kids ability to like be<br>prepared for the future and use a new<br>technology, they seem really good at<br>that.<br>Yeah.<br>Always through history.<br>That's a good point actually. Yeah. It's<br>like if you just grow up with it, it's<br>just like having it's just totally<br>normal. It's like having kneecaps or<br>whatever. You're just kind of used to<br>it.<br>You can't imagine the world where it<br>doesn't exist. You just<br>Yeah.<br>Yeah. That's a good point.<br>I remember when I was uh in school in<br>like junior high and Google first came<br>out.<br>Mhm. And all the teachers like freaked<br>out and they're like, "This is the end<br>of education." You know, I get if you<br>Why do you have to memorize history<br>facts in history class if you can just<br>look them up instantly on the internet?<br>You don't even have to learn to go to<br>the library. And the answer is like,<br>yeah, maybe memorization is less<br>important, but with these new tools, you<br>can think better, come up with new<br>ideas, do new stuff. I'm sure the same<br>thing happened with the calculator<br>before.<br>Yeah.<br>And you know, now this is like this is<br>just a new tool that exists in the tool<br>chain. And what about like say if there<br>is somebody though that's like learning<br>history right now, like they just<br>started their second year of college.<br>Oh, that Celsius. Yeah, that thing will<br>definitely you won't be able to blink<br>for a month, homie. That thing will<br>Yeah, you'll sneeze and release 5.0,<br>dude. You'll freaking Are you guys at<br>4.5 already?<br>We're 4.5 already. 5.0 is uh I think<br>it's going to be great.<br>Oh, it'll come out fast if you add that<br>Celsius to what I'm saying.<br>Maybe the researchers need it, not me.<br>But uh you know, we'll get them some.<br>Yeah, that thing will get you there,<br>man. Um so say there's somebody just for<br>example like that's learning history<br>right now. They're in their second year<br>of college. They're they're taking<br>history. Is that are there some subjects<br>in like like they they're going to be a<br>historian? Is that still a viable space<br>of work? Uh as AI moves forward, do you<br>think? Honestly,<br>I I assume there will be some version of<br>it that is uh I I think it's very hard<br>to predict exactly how something<br>evolves. Um I or predict exactly the<br>jobs of the future going to be like the<br>you know not that long ago it would have<br>been very hard to predict either of our<br>jobs if you go back a hundred years the<br>idea of like this CEO of an AI company<br>or a podcaster like you know probably<br>would have been things that didn't seem<br>to be the most obvious evolutions of the<br>things people were doing at the time.<br>Yeah. Hey, you just seemed almost<br>probably crazy even in trying to explain<br>those to someone.<br>You would. And now, in fact, two of the<br>job I heard that the job that young<br>people most want is some version of your<br>job.<br>The job that young people most want is<br>to be uh, you know, podcast influencer,<br>uh, YouTube, they want a YouTube<br>channel, like whatever it is, they they<br>like six, seven year olds, they don't<br>know how to describe it, but that's what<br>they want.<br>And a lot of people also want my job.<br>They want to do like a startup or they<br>want to work on AI. And these just<br>didn't exist.<br>Yeah. So like the rate with which the<br>new things come along is is fast and<br>also trying to predict what they are. I<br>don't know. The thing I say all the time<br>is no one knows what happens next. It's<br>like we're going to figure this out.<br>It's this weird emergent thing. Does the<br>current job of a historian exist in the<br>same way? I would bet not quite. But<br>another thing I believe is that humans<br>are obsessed with other people. Like we<br>are so deeply wired to care about other<br>people, to care about stories and<br>history, our own history is extremely<br>interesting to us. So I would say<br>somehow or other we're still going to<br>care about that. There's going to be<br>some kind of job doing that.<br>Man, that's cool. G I guess I I if<br>when I take that avenue of thought like<br>okay there will still be this historian<br>or somebody it'll be some evolution of<br>that. Right. That does seem kind of cool<br>to me because there's a level of<br>creativity in there. There's a level of<br>like faith and spontaneity in there that<br>I think is kind of exciting. So yeah, I<br>guess I hadn't really thought about<br>that. Sometimes I get stuck in this<br>doomsday thing like I just see like you<br>know like the history book closes and<br>they're like we have enough we have all<br>the history over here you know it<br>you know people used to say like oh<br>there's no need for more music we've<br>made perfect music like why does anyone<br>need anyone to create anymore and that's<br>obviously ridiculous or they would say<br>there's that famous patent office quote<br>everything that humans ever possibly<br>need has been invented there's nothing<br>left to do<br>I have heard that but here we are<br>here we are and and like<br>someone asked me the other day like you<br>know how long is it until you can make<br>like a AI AI CEO for OpenAI. And I was<br>like, probably not that long. And they<br>were like, well, aren't you really sad<br>about that? And I was like, no, I think<br>it's awesome. I'm for sure going to<br>figure out something else to do. I'm<br>excited to do that. Like, I think that's<br>great.<br>Right. So, you could create something<br>that would have your job, but then you<br>could do something else.<br>Totally.<br>But then how do you know that you'll<br>still get paid for your job? I guess<br>like<br>Well,<br>that's kind of a big question. I I kind<br>of think that<br>but yeah I guess the framing of that<br>question might be better like say there<br>are jobs that get curtailed by<br>there will be some<br>okay<br>I think it's important to be honest<br>about that there will be some jobs that<br>totally go away<br>but mostly I think we we we will rely on<br>the fact that people's desire for more<br>stuff for better experiences for you<br>know a higher social status or whatever<br>that seems basically limitless human<br>creativity seems basically limitless and<br>human desire to like be useful to each<br>each other and to connect with each<br>other and do stuff for each other and<br>focus on other people seems pretty<br>limitless, too. So, I think throughout<br>all of history, there have been these<br>predictions like ah, you know, we're<br>going to<br>we're going to like all be on the beach<br>and work an hour a day or hour a week or<br>whatever and we're going to have<br>unlimited wealth and and I've never<br>heard that. I would I love that.<br>I mean, they used to say this. They used<br>to like the industrial revolution,<br>people were like, "Oh, you know, we just<br>figured out how to automate like man's<br>lot in life. There's nothing left to do.<br>We were going to have these machines do<br>all the work.<br>Makes<br>sense probably.<br>And you watch these machines doing all<br>this stuff that only people used to<br>physically do. And everybody panicked<br>and said there's going to be no more<br>jobs. And we figured out new stuff to<br>want. Now, here's an interesting thing.<br>If you could go back to that industrial<br>revolution time and people before that<br>were, you know, really on the grind,<br>working super hard trying to like kind<br>of have enough food to survive.<br>Go back to those people. Look at our<br>jobs today. Would those people say we<br>have real jobs or would they say you<br>have unbelievable abundance,<br>unbelievable wealth, so much food to<br>eat, incredible luxury, and you guys are<br>just like playing a game to entertain<br>yourselves. Is that a real job or not?<br>And they would probably say where they<br>sit, what you guys do is not a real job.<br>You guys are, you know, you're too rich.<br>You're wasting your time. You're trying<br>to like<br>Yeah. You guys are a couple of dang zest<br>lords out there freaking playing Uno in<br>the park or whatever. They They would<br>not I don't think my grandfather would<br>be like, "You have a job." He would<br>still be like, "You need to get a job."<br>Yeah. Totally. And when we look forward<br>another hundred years of what people are<br>doing, they'll probably<br>think they're working very hard. It'll<br>feel very satisfying, very intense to<br>them. They're really like they'll feel<br>engaged. They'll be making other people<br>happy. They'll be creating value for<br>each other. But if we could look forward<br>that hundred years at those guys, do you<br>think we would say they're working or<br>like man, you have like AI doing<br>everything for you. You're just trying<br>to entertain yourselves.<br>Yeah. Like, oh, you guys have it so<br>easy, right?<br>But I think that's beautiful. I think<br>it's great that those people in the past<br>think we have it so easy. I think it's<br>great that we think those people in the<br>future have it so easy. Like that is the<br>beautiful story of us all contributing<br>to human progress and everybody's lives<br>getting better and better.<br>say we're able to get to that space,<br>right? Like the move like the movement<br>that happens with AI and with just<br>technology which will advance quicker I<br>think which is one thing that AI feels<br>like to me it's a fast forward button on<br>technology and on uh possibility because<br>things can be information can be<br>quantified so quick and a lot of like uh<br>more menial tasks even though they're<br>not really menial in people's lives um<br>but menial hypothetically uh can be done<br>quicker to get a lot of the framework<br>for things done fast. But how will<br>people survive? Like how do we adjust<br>our structure of finan of like if some<br>people own the companies that have the<br>AI and then a lot of people um are just<br>using the AIS and the agents created by<br>AIs to do things for them. How will<br>society like societal members still be<br>able to financially survive? Will there<br>still be money? What is that? Does that<br>make any sense? That question.<br>It totally makes sense. Uh I don't know.<br>Neither does anybody else. But I'll tell<br>you my current best guess.<br>Okay.<br>Well, I'll say two guesses. One, I think<br>it is possible that we put, you know,<br>GPT7 or whatever in everybody's chat<br>GBT. Everybody gets it for free and<br>everybody has access to just this like<br>crazy thing such that everybody can be<br>more productive, make way more money.<br>Doesn't actually matter that you don't<br>like own the cluster itself, but<br>everybody gets to use it. And it turns<br>out even getting to use it is enough<br>that people are like getting richer<br>faster and more distributed than ever<br>before. That could happen. I think that<br>really is possible.<br>There's another version of this where<br>the most important things that are<br>happening are these systems are<br>discovering, you know, new cures for<br>diseases, new kinds of energy, new ways<br>to make spaceships, whatever. And most<br>of that value is acrewing to the like<br>cluster owners, us, just so that I'm not<br>dodging the question here. And then I<br>think society will very quickly say,<br>"Okay, we got to have some new some new<br>economic model where we share that and<br>distribute that to people." Uh, I used<br>to be really excited about things like<br>UBI. I still am kind of excited like<br>universal basic income where you just<br>give everybody money.<br>Yeah, you hear that term a lot. Yeah,<br>universal basic income. Yeah, I heard<br>you and Rogan talk about that too a<br>while back.<br>I still am kind of excited about that.<br>But I think people really need agency.<br>like they really need to feel like they<br>have a voice in governing the future and<br>deciding where things go. And I think if<br>you just like say okay<br>AI is going to do everything and then<br>everybody gets like a you know dividend<br>from that it's not going to feel good<br>and and I don't think it actually would<br>be good for people. So I think we need<br>to find a way where we're not just like<br>if we're in this world where we're not<br>just distributing money or wealth like<br>actually<br>I I don't just want like a check every<br>month. What I would want is like a<br>ownership share in whatever the AI<br>creates so that I feel like I'm<br>participating in this thing that's going<br>to compound and get more valuable over<br>time. So I sort of like universal basic<br>wealth better than universal basic<br>income. And I think<br>I don't like basic either. I want like<br>universal extreme wealth for everybody.<br>Um but but even then like I think what<br>people really want is the agency to kind<br>of co-create the future together<br>and<br>and in a world where it's like the AI is<br>mostly coming up with the new scientific<br>inventions at least we've got to still<br>have humans like invent the new culture<br>and have that be a very distributed<br>thing.<br>Okay. I guess yeah I I I see what you're<br>saying but would that be like an<br>American thing do you think? like since<br>they were invented here or do you think<br>I'm just wondering what does that look<br>like you know<br>the economic model of it all or the<br>whole thing?<br>Yeah. Or like is there a dividend of the<br>company that then is divided up between<br>the masses sort of<br>I mean a crazy idea but in the spirit of<br>crazy ideas is that if the world there's<br>like eight roughly eight billion people<br>in the world. If the world can generate<br>like<br>eight quintilion tokens per year, if<br>that's the world, actually let's say the<br>world can generate 20 trillion quintil<br>20 quintillion tokens per year.<br>Tokens of<br>like uh each word generated by an AI.<br>Okay,<br>just making up a huge number here. We'll<br>say okay 12 of those go to, you know,<br>the normal capitalistic system, but<br>eight of those eight quintilion tokens<br>are going to get divided up equally<br>among 8 billion people. So everybody<br>gets 1 trillion tokens and that's your<br>kind of universal basic wealth globally<br>and people can sell those tokens like if<br>I don't need mine I can sell them to<br>you. We could pull ours together for<br>some like new art project we want to do<br>but but instead of just like getting a<br>check you're get everybody on Earth is<br>getting like a slice of the world's AI<br>capacity and then we're letting the like<br>massively distributed human ingenuity<br>and creativity and economic engine do<br>its thing. H<br>I mean that's like a crazy idea. Maybe<br>it's a bad one, but that's the kind of<br>thing that I think sounds like someone<br>should think about it more.<br>One of the big fears is like purpose,<br>right? Like human purpose. Like work<br>gives us purpose. And also I think the<br>idea that we are the ones advancing<br>humanity gives us purpose. Like we are<br>the<br>like yeah like we have some<br>control over our own destiny. maybe<br>gives us this sense of purpose<br>and it feels like that we would lose a<br>sense of purpose or that purpose would<br>be adjusted like if AI is to really you<br>know continue to advance so quickly it<br>feels like our sense of purpose would<br>start to really disappear.<br>Do have you had thoughts about that?<br>I worry about this a lot. It's so I<br>think people have worried about this<br>with every big technological revolution<br>but I agree that this time it feels<br>different like<br>Okay. Yeah. Because if say you had an<br>axe and somebody came out with a saw,<br>you're like you're like, "Yeah, that's<br>it."<br>Or even if they come out with like a a<br>robot that cuts the tree down, it still<br>feels fine. But like<br>creativity, intelligence, I think cuts<br>so deeply at the core of whatever we are<br>and how we how we value ourselves.<br>Um,<br>one example we can look at this right<br>now, I think one area where AI is having<br>a big impact is on how people write<br>software for a living. And AI is really<br>good at that. and it's really changed<br>what it means to be a software<br>developer.<br>I haven't heard any of those software<br>developers say they they even though<br>their job is different that they don't<br>have meaning. They still enjoy it.<br>They're operating at a higher level. Um<br>and I'm hopeful at least for a long<br>time, you know, 100 years from now, who<br>knows? But I'm hopeful that that's what<br>it'll feel like with AI is even if we're<br>asking it to solve huge problems for us.<br>Even if we ask it to say like, you know,<br>go discover a cure for cancer,<br>there will still be a lot of things to<br>do in that process<br>that feel valuable to a person.<br>Mhm.<br>You'll still asking it the questions.<br>You're still like helping guide it.<br>You're still framing it or whatever it<br>is. You're still like talking to the<br>world about it. And<br>and I think all of human history<br>suggests that we find a way to put<br>ourselves at the center of the story and<br>feel really good about it. Like you know<br>if you kind of think like<br>we used to think that the earth was the<br>center of the solar system and then<br>we're like very humanentric view and<br>then we're like okay fine the sun is the<br>center of the solar system but the solar<br>system is at least the center of the<br>galaxy and now oh man there's a lot of<br>galaxies and oh man now we're this like<br>tiny speck in this like very huge<br>universe<br>and<br>and yet we still manage to feel all like<br>a lot of main character energy. And so I<br>somehow think even in a world where AI<br>is doing all of this stuff that humans<br>used to do, we are going to find a way<br>in our own telling of the story to feel<br>like the main characters. And I think in<br>an important sense, we will be. And<br>that's really good. I also like, you<br>know, probably already today<br>there could be a very compelling version<br>of two AIs talking like this.<br>And I don't think I would want to watch<br>that. Like I think I I really do feel<br>deeply wired to like care about the real<br>person behind it. I think that's like<br>deep in the biology,<br>right?<br>Yeah. That's the part that I think a lot<br>of times it's like even though you can<br>get into like these wormholes of like<br>possibility and these fear holes of<br>possibility or um kind of this dystopian<br>ideas that in the end I'm like I'd<br>rather probably watch something that's<br>real. You know, it's like because I'm<br>real. You know what I'm saying? like I<br>don't want to talk really to a robot.<br>I'd re, you know, Yeah. I think in the<br>end there's going to be a part of you<br>that wants to continue to just talk to<br>um talk to humans. Do you uh<br>what's like one of your fears? Like<br>what's a fear you have of AI? Like if<br>you have like a fearful space that it<br>could go like I know you mentioned it a<br>little bit<br>this morning. I I was testing our new<br>model and I got a question. I got<br>emailed a question that I didn't quite<br>understand. Uh, and I put it in the<br>model, this GPT5, and it answered it<br>perfectly<br>and I really kind of sat back in my<br>chair and I was just like a, oh man,<br>here it is moment<br>and I got over it quickly. I got busy<br>onto the next thing, but it was like a I<br>mean, this what kind of we were talking<br>about. I felt like useless relative to<br>the AI in this thing that I felt like I<br>should have been able to do and I<br>couldn't and it was really hard, but the<br>AI just did it like that. Yeah, it<br>was it was a weird feeling.<br>Yeah, I think that's I think that<br>feeling right there that's the feeling a<br>lot of people kind of have like what's<br>going you know when does it happen?<br>What's going to happen? Um but I think<br>some of it is it's like you it's hard to<br>conceptualize until you're further<br>along.<br>I I'm all to totally I don't think we<br>know quite how that's going to feel. You<br>just have to like approach it step by<br>step. Another thing I'm afraid of, and<br>we had a,<br>you know, a a a real problem with this<br>earlier, but it can get much worse, is<br>just what this is going to mean for<br>users mental health. Um, there's a lot<br>of people that talk to chatbt all day<br>long. There are these sort of new AI<br>companions that people talk to like they<br>would a a girlfriend or a boyfriend. Um,<br>and we were talking earlier about how<br>it's probably not been good for kids to<br>like grow up like on the dopamine hit of<br>scrolling, you know, or whatever.<br>Yeah. Do you think that that how do you<br>keep like um AI from having that same<br>effect like that negative effect that<br>social media really has had?<br>I I'm I'm scared of that. I don't I<br>don't have an answer yet. Uh I don't<br>think we know quite the ways in which<br>it's going to have those negative<br>impacts. Uh, but I feel for sure it's<br>going to have some and we'll have to I<br>hope we can learn to mitigate it<br>quickly.<br>Um, can AI can they pull up pornography<br>and stuff like that too or No.<br>Sure.<br>Oh my god.<br>God, I didn't know that.<br>H No, it's fine. I Yeah, but I just<br>Yeah, I don't even need to know that.<br>I'm going to have that stricken from my<br>own record.<br>Crypto is it's kind of blowing up again,<br>you know. It's Some people say it's<br>back. It's not back. It's one of the<br>best things is is it hasn't left. It is<br>it has maintained itself as a viable<br>form of currency and I'm back in I'm<br>back invested and when I need more<br>Bitcoin or Salana or XRP, Moonpay<br>is always the first app I open. Since<br>Moonay works with Apple Pay, Vinmo,<br>PayPal, bank accounts, and credit cards,<br>it's fast and easy to get what I need in<br>a few clicks. And because Moonay has<br>been around for six years and is used by<br>millions of people, they've also formed<br>pretty cool relationships with other<br>companies in the crypto space. Yep. Moon<br>is partnered now with Trust Wallet, one<br>of the most popular self-custody wallets<br>in the world. With Trust Wallet, you<br>control your crypto fully. No<br>compromises. And thanks to Moonay, you<br>can fund your wallet instantly using<br>your favorite payment methods. It's the<br>fastest way to go from cash to crypto,<br>all while keeping full control of your<br>assets. Remember, while Moonay makes<br>buying crypto straightforward, it's<br>essential to do your own research and<br>understand the risks involved. Crypto<br>trading can be volatile and you could<br>lose your investment. Moon is a tool to<br>facilitate your transactions, not a<br>source of financial advice. Trade<br>responsibly. What happens when your<br>health becomes the punchline? That's my<br>question. It feels like that's where<br>we're at. From seed oils to stress,<br>toxins, pollutants, the modern world is<br>screwing with our health at the cellular<br>level, leading to exhaustion, brain fog,<br>digestive issues, and more. But here's<br>the thing. You don't have to settle for<br>feeling like garbage 247.<br>Armra colostrum is nature's original<br>health hack. Packed with over 400<br>bioactive nutrients that fortify gut<br>integrity, strengthen immunity,<br>revitalize hair growth, fuel stamina,<br>elevate focus, and help you function<br>like a human again. I love using it in<br>my smoothies at home. I'll make me a<br>little smoothie. Bang. Putting some<br>blueberries, spinach,<br>hit with a little packet of Armra<br>colostrum.<br>We've worked out a special offer for our<br>audience here. To receive 15% off your<br>first order, go to tryarma.com/theo<br>or enter t ho to get 15% off your first<br>order. That's t r y a r a.como.<br>Um what legal system do does AI have to<br>work by? Is there like a legal like are<br>there like we have laws like in the<br>world, right? like in the human world is<br>in does AI have to work by any like<br>legal laws you know<br>yeah so I I think we will certainly need<br>a legal or a policy framework for AI um<br>one example that we've been thinking<br>about a lot this is like a maybe not<br>quite what you're asking this is like a<br>very human centric version of that<br>question people talk about the most<br>personal [ __ ] in their lives to chipt<br>it's you know people use it young people<br>especially like use it as a therapist a<br>life coach uh having these relationship<br>problems, what should I do? And right<br>now, if you talk to a therapist or a<br>lawyer or a doctor about those problems,<br>there's like legal privilege for it, you<br>know, like it's there's doctor patient<br>confidentiality, there's legal<br>confidentiality, whatever.<br>And<br>we don't we haven't figured that out yet<br>for when you talk to Chat GPT. So, if<br>you go talk to Chatt about your most<br>sensitive stuff and then there's like a<br>lawsuit or whatever, like we could be<br>required to produce that. And I think<br>that's very screwed up. I think we<br>should have like the same concept of<br>privacy for your conversations with AI<br>that we do with a therapist or whatever.<br>And no one had to think about that even<br>a year ago. And now I think it's this<br>huge issue of like how are we going to<br>treat the laws around this?<br>Well, do you think there should be like<br>kind of like a like a slowing things<br>down before we move there kind of cuz<br>Yeah, it is kind of wild. That's one of<br>the reasons I get scared sometimes to<br>use certain AI stuff because um I don't<br>know how much personal information I<br>want to put in because I don't know<br>who's going to have it.<br>I think we need this point addressed<br>with some urgency. Um and you know the<br>policy makers I've talked to about it<br>like broadly agree it's just it's new<br>and now we got to do it quickly. Do you<br>talk to ChachiT?<br>I don't talk to it that much. One of the<br>one of my<br>because of this.<br>I think it is. It's because it's like<br>I I think it makes sense.<br>I to not talk to<br>No, no, no. like really want the privacy<br>clarity before you use it a lot.<br>Yeah.<br>Like the legal clarity.<br>Yeah. It's scary and it's like well how<br>long does it take lawmakers to come up<br>with that and then it feels like it's<br>moving so fast that it's like it doesn't<br>even ma that that sometimes it's like it<br>doesn't even really matter. It's like<br>are we even waiting for the laws to be<br>put around this or or what's going on?<br>Does it feel like it's moving too fast<br>for you sometimes?<br>The last few months have felt very fast.<br>It feels faster and faster, but the last<br>few months have felt very fast.<br>Yeah. Yeah, I was watching this guy um<br>Yosua Benjio.<br>Yashua Benjio.<br>Yosua Benjio. And he's kind of like some<br>people call him the father of AI. He may<br>be self-proclaimed. I'm not really sure.<br>Um but he certainly seemed to be kind of<br>like a lifeguard for AI, like thinking<br>about like, well, you know, how do we<br>keep the pool safe? You know, how much<br>water should be in it? You know, the<br>chlorine, what, you know, how many<br>lifeguards do you need on duty? That<br>type of thing, hypothetically. Um, and<br>he said and he was saying that some AIs<br>they they have like deception techniques<br>inside of them like that there were AIs<br>that would rather give you an answer<br>that was possibly pleasing to the user<br>than to give them the factual answer. Uh<br>and then he was also saying that there<br>were um AIs that were developing some of<br>their own languages to communicate with<br>each other which would be languages that<br>we don't even know. Um what is that how<br>how do you guys curtail that when those<br>types of things come up? What does that<br>even kind of fe feel like to you guys?<br>Or are these just problems that happen<br>in new spaces and you figure it out as<br>you go?<br>You know, there are these moments in the<br>history of science where you have a<br>group of scientists<br>look at their creation and just say, you<br>know, what what if what have we done?<br>What maybe it's great, maybe it's bad,<br>but what have we done? Like maybe the<br>most iconic example is thinking about<br>the scientists working on the Manhattan<br>project in 1945 sitting there watching<br>the Trinity test and just you know this<br>thing that had it was a completely new<br>not<br>not human scale kind of power and<br>everyone knew it was going to reshape<br>the world and I do think people working<br>on AI have that feeling in a very deep<br>way you know we just don't know like we<br>think it's going to be There's clearly<br>real risks. It kind of feels like you<br>should be able to say something more<br>than that. But in truth, I think all we<br>know right now is that we have<br>discovered, invented, whatever you want<br>to call it, something extraordinary that<br>is going to reshape the course of human<br>history.<br>Dear God, man. But if you don't know, we<br>don't know.<br>Well, of course. I mean, I I think no<br>one no one can predict the future. Like<br>human society is very complex. This is<br>an amazing new technology. Maybe a less<br>dramatic example than the atomic bomb is<br>when they discovered the transistor a<br>few years later.<br>The transistor radio,<br>the little transistor part that you know<br>made computers and radios and everything<br>else. But we discovered this completely<br>new thing that enabled the whole<br>computer revolution and is in this<br>microphone and those computers and our<br>iPhones and like the world would be so<br>different if people had not discovered<br>that and then over the decades figured<br>out how to make them smaller and more<br>efficient. And now we don't even think<br>about it because the transistors are<br>just everything. We have all this modern<br>technology from that one scientific<br>discovery. And I do think that's what AI<br>is going to be like. We had this one<br>crazy scientific discovery<br>that led to these language models we all<br>use now.<br>And that is going to change the course<br>of society in all kinds of ways. And and<br>of course we don't know what they all<br>are.<br>Damn. I was hoping you knew by the end<br>of that sentence or I was hoping you<br>would you know like that's what we're<br>cuz we don't know you know like that's I<br>think the tough thing.<br>There's no time in human history at the<br>beginning of a century where the people<br>ever knew what the end of the century<br>was going to be like.<br>Yeah.<br>So maybe it's I do think it goes faster<br>and faster each century.<br>Mhm.<br>Certainly like you know in 1900 you<br>couldn't have predicted what 2000 was<br>going to be like. I think in 2000 you<br>could even less predict what 2100 was<br>going to look like.<br>But that's kind of why it's exciting and<br>like that's kind of why people get to<br>figure out and unfold the story as we<br>go.<br>It's kind of bizarre because there's a<br>part of me that's like this guy's out of<br>his mind. This guy is a is a is a wild<br>wizard. You know, there's a couple<br>different things. But then there's also<br>this part of me that's like this guy is<br>this hopeful guy what who's like<br>involved in this crazy space and he kind<br>of has this whimsical energy about the<br>future which is in a crazy way a nice<br>energy to have about the future<br>generally is that something could happen<br>or that things are possible. Um, so it<br>just, yeah, it's all kind of like I<br>don't know. It's fascinating<br>to me. Um, Sam to kind of pivot a little<br>bit. There's, it feels like there's a<br>race right now in AI, right? Would you<br>say that there's a race between<br>companies in AI?<br>It certainly feels that way.<br>Yeah. And it almost feels like you guys<br>are the new Formula One drivers or you<br>guys are like the new like uh it's like<br>um Mario Andredy or you guys are the new<br>like uh Bubba Watts and all the you know<br>it's almost like these are the new race<br>cars that everybody's kind of watching<br>position themselves. Um<br>what is the race for? Because you hear<br>about AI and then you hear about AGI<br>uh and then you hear about super<br>intelligence. What is what is this race<br>that's going on? How real is it? And<br>what is the race for?<br>When I was a kid, the race was like the<br>meahertz race and then it became the<br>gigahertz race. Everybody wanted a<br>computer with a faster processor. Oh<br>yeah. You know, Intel would come out<br>with this one and then AMD would come<br>out with this one<br>and every like it turned out that those<br>gigahertz measurements eventually were<br>not even that helpful. Like you could<br>have one that had a lower number and it<br>was in practice it was faster. And<br>eventually, I think it was Apple that<br>realized they should just stop talking<br>about the clock speed of their<br>computers. And you probably don't even<br>know what the processor speed of your<br>iPhone is today.<br>Yeah, it's true. Yeah, that was a big<br>thing and it kind of disappeared.<br>And I think the same thing has been<br>happening in AI where everybody was<br>racing on these benchmarks. You know, I<br>score this on this benchmark and this on<br>that one. And now people are realizing<br>that like, okay, the benchmarks are kind<br>of saturated. We went through the<br>equivalent of our megahertz race with<br>our benchmark race and now people kind<br>of don't care about that as much and now<br>it's like who's using the model, who's<br>getting the value out of it, things like<br>that. Um, but<br>but I do think people still feel like<br>we're heading towards some milestone.<br>what the milestone is, they disagree on,<br>but maybe it's maybe it's a system<br>that's capable of doing its own AI<br>research and its own sort of<br>self-improvement. Um, maybe it's a<br>system that is like smarter than all of<br>humans put together, but they feel like<br>there is some<br>finish line to cross. I actually don't<br>quite feel like this, but I think a lot<br>of people in the industry that there's<br>some finish line that we're going to<br>cross. Maybe it's this like<br>self-improvement<br>moment. Maybe you call that super<br>intelligence. Um, and I think there is a<br>sort of<br>there's like a race to get somewhere,<br>but people don't agree on where it's to<br>or something.<br>What are you racing towards? You feel<br>like<br>It's a great question. Um, I don't have<br>like a finish line in mind. There's<br>nothing I could say to I don't think I<br>can articulate anything where I would<br>say like this is mission complete. But<br>if I if I had to give like a self<br>referential answer there, you know, the<br>moment where we would rather give our<br>research cluster like our, you know,<br>GPUs that we run all of our AI<br>experiments on, the moment where we<br>would rather give that to an AI<br>researcher rather than our brilliant<br>team of human researchers, that does at<br>least seem like some kind of very<br>different new era.<br>Yeah. And at that point, who's even we?<br>I feel like it's just you kind of like<br>wheeling the stuff across the hall in a,<br>you know, like who's going to, you know<br>what I'm saying? Like, you know what I'm<br>saying? It starts to get this idea like<br>if we keep if ever, if things were to<br>keep leaving the the people and go to<br>the computer,<br>you're just shoveling coal into the AI<br>hypothetically. You know,<br>again, I assume that what will happen,<br>like with every other kind of<br>technology, is we'll realize like we<br>there's this one thing that the tool's<br>way better than us at. Now, we got to go<br>solve some other problems. So, let's put<br>our brain power there. I I somehow don't<br>think it'll ever feel like we all just<br>get to like push a button and go on<br>vacation.<br>Got it.<br>Um like we will I think as one one<br>version of this is as uh as capabilities<br>go up because as we get better tools the<br>expectation goes way up too. And so<br>we've got to like<br>yes we get much better tools but we have<br>to do way more to remain competitive.<br>Well I think there's this hopeful idea.<br>Say if you come up with all these<br>or maybe not like maybe maybe the AI is<br>just better than us at absolutely<br>everything and we just sit there being<br>like all right that was cool.<br>Yeah because well at a certain point if<br>something has all the information right<br>if something has all the information and<br>it can think and and and ponder and uh<br>pontificate and serve multi options of<br>answers. Aren't we then working for that<br>thing? Like that's what I start to<br>wonder like if it's the smartest thing<br>in the room.<br>GPT5 is the smartest thing. GB5 is<br>smarter than us in almost every way. you<br>know, and yet here we are.<br>So, there's like there's something about<br>the way the world works. There's<br>something about this doesn't mean it's<br>true forever, but there's something<br>about what humans can do today that is<br>so different. There's also something<br>about what humans care about today that<br>is so different than AI that I don't<br>think the simplistic thing quite works.<br>Now, again, by the time it's a million<br>times smarter than us,<br>who knows?<br>Is part of you want to kind of get<br>there? Like how do we get where like I<br>open the door and you and I say excuse<br>me sir and it's just my computer in<br>there. You know what I'm saying? Like<br>you know when<br>when I was a kid<br>I<br>I sort of thought about these<br>technological revolutions that happened<br>one at a time. There was the agriculture<br>revolution a long time ago and that<br>freed us up to do these other things.<br>And then there was the like there was<br>the age of enlightenment and there was<br>the industrial revolution and there was<br>the computer revolution and all these<br>things happened and I thought of them as<br>like these distinct things and now I<br>view it as just this one long<br>compounding exponential where<br>all of these things come together. Each<br>piece of technology is built<br>continuously overlapping on the one that<br>comes before<br>and we're able to just do more and more.<br>And so in some sense AI is this big<br>special unique different thing. And in<br>some other sense it is just part of this<br>long arc of human progress. We talked<br>about the transistor earlier but like<br>that was way more important in some<br>sense to AI happening than the work we<br>do now. And all this stuff has to like<br>compound compound. You got to build the<br>internet. You got to get all this data.<br>You got to do all these things. And<br>and I want that exponential to keep<br>going. There will be things way after<br>AI. We'll invent all sorts of new<br>things. We'll go colonize space. we'll<br>go, you know, build neural interfaces.<br>Who knows what else we'll do?<br>But I think at some point AI fades into<br>that arc of history. We build, we don't<br>we don't even think about it. It's like<br>transistors, which you don't even think<br>about today. It's just another layer in<br>the scaffolding that humans collectively<br>have built up bit by bit over time. And<br>where you sit in our day, you get to<br>open that door. You have this like<br>computer that only has one interface.<br>You just it says, "What do you want?"<br>You say whatever you want. It happens.<br>and you figure out amazing new things to<br>build for the next generation and the<br>next and the next and we just keep<br>going.<br>Yeah. I think the the part that I think<br>gets spooky is I can't build any I can<br>build some stuff but I can't build like<br>any technological stuff. So then I'm<br>like dang dude well I'm not going to<br>what am I going to build over there?<br>Okay. So, right now I can write<br>software, maybe you can't<br>and I have a little advantage if I want<br>to go build some technological thing.<br>Very soon you can make any piece of<br>software you want cuz you just ask an AI<br>in English. You say, "I got an idea for<br>an app. Make me this thing."<br>And the whole thing just happens.<br>So, that's a win for you. Maybe it's a<br>little bit of a loss for me. I think<br>it's kind of cool for the whole world.<br>Yeah.<br>But<br>like this is this is going to be a<br>technology that anybody can use. You can<br>just like with natural language you can<br>say this is what I want and it goes off<br>and writes the code for you, debugs it<br>for you, deploys it for you<br>and then you can say how do I use what I<br>just created.<br>Yeah. But if you have a great idea, AI<br>will just make it happen for you.<br>And this is a new thing. Like this is<br>this I think this will make technology<br>the most accessible it ever has been.<br>Got it. Okay. Then that seems a little<br>bit different. I think there's this idea<br>in my head that I'm going to have to<br>figure out all this coding. I have to<br>figure out all of these different ways<br>to do things to even have a possibility<br>of of use of myself in the future.<br>No, I think this is uh without talking<br>too much about the future and what we're<br>going to launch like the fact that you<br>will be able to have an entire piece of<br>software created just by like explaining<br>your idea is going to be incredible for<br>humans getting great new stuff. Cuz<br>right now, I think there's like a lot<br>more good ideas than people who know how<br>to make them. And if AI can do that for<br>us, we're really good at coming up with<br>creative ideas.<br>Yeah. I mean, that's one of the things<br>that people like to do. Um, do you think<br>right now if if humans, regular average<br>humans, most humans could vote to keep<br>AI going or to stop AI? What do you<br>think that they<br>Great question.<br>What do you think that they would vote?<br>This is like totally kind of I don't<br>have any data for this. I would bet most<br>people who use chatbt, which is a lot of<br>people know, they would say like keep it<br>going. And most people who don't would<br>say it's scary, stop it.<br>What do you think?<br>Yeah, I feel like most people would say<br>stop it, I think. Or pause it, take the<br>wheels off of it for a month, that kind<br>of thing. Siphon the gas out of the<br>tank, you know, like that kind of thing.<br>Put sugar in it. I think there like that<br>kind of thing, you know.<br>What are you most afraid of with it? Or<br>is it just that we're not going to have<br>purpose and we don't know how it's all<br>going to go?<br>Yeah. I mean, those are some of the huge<br>parts. But I think like there's like um<br>probably that I think that in the end I<br>think there's a general feeling of like<br>well if all the trucking jobs disappear<br>you know if those become automated and<br>um<br>and like yeah if everything becomes a<br>robo tax like you know will that feel<br>you know where will those people go for<br>jobs will everybody just be dancing on<br>TikTok trying to get people to tip them<br>for trends and stuff you know like<br>there's part of that I had this dream<br>years ago that it all ends with<br>everybody's driving an Uber and<br>literally holding each other at gunpoint<br>to be each other's passengers, right?<br>Like get in my cuz that's how bad like<br>somebody's like I need to fair more than<br>you do. You know, my whole family's in<br>the back seat sit shotgun we'll get you<br>to wherever you know like people are<br>literally holding each other at gunpoint<br>to subscribe to their Only Fans and<br>stuff like it's just that um dystopian<br>or whatever. Um, so I guess part of<br>that, but then there's a deeper part<br>where it's like, yeah, what comes out of<br>us if it feels like a lot of the regular<br>stuff that gives us purpose that we know<br>right now gives us purpose? Is there a<br>new evolution of our purpose? Is there<br>like a blooming inside of us? Is it this<br>utopian place that you almost think of<br>as like a heaven idea where you know<br>people's are fed and have enough you<br>know can take are provided for can take<br>care of themselves<br>I guess that's that that's it or what<br>because purpose gives people work work<br>gives people so much of their purpose<br>and so for to lose those things what is<br>it what happens you know and I know I<br>kind of keep asking that over and over<br>again you don't really have the answers<br>and that's it's okay of course how could<br>you we're not in the future<br>I mean I think people really do love to<br>be useful to each other and people love<br>to express their creativity as part of<br>that.<br>And<br>as the long-term trend of society<br>getting richer has continued, more<br>people I think are able to do get closer<br>to sort of expressing themselves in the<br>best way that they can. May maybe like<br>you know as recently as<br>five or six hundred years ago not very<br>many people got to be artists. The world<br>wasn't that rich. There were a limited<br>number of patrons that could like pay<br>you to create art but there were more<br>than zero. And before that there were<br>almost none. And then you got this<br>beautiful Italian Renaissance and all of<br>this amazing art uh because there was<br>like excess capital in the world. And<br>now a lot more people can be artists or<br>a lot more people can start startups<br>which is another like for me that's like<br>my expression of creativity<br>right<br>um or more people can create content.<br>Yeah.<br>Uh and<br>and this idea that<br>people can find whatever way they can to<br>express themselves, their talent, their<br>vision. um for kind of collective love<br>of other people and a care for putting<br>their brick in society's progress.<br>I think that can go really far. Now,<br>what art in the future looks like now<br>that AI can make art or help make art, I<br>don't know. It'll probably be kind of<br>different what startups will look like<br>in the future when people can kind of<br>just say whatever they want to their AI<br>and it can make this off of them, right?<br>Then it will kind of be different. But<br>but I think it's such a bad bet to<br>assume that either human creativity or<br>human fulfillment from being useful to<br>other people ends. I think we're just we<br>stay on this exponential and like each<br>year, each decade, our collective<br>standard of living goes way up. The<br>whole world gets way richer. We all get<br>more. We all expect more. And<br>even over like the course I was thinking<br>recently like food is so much better<br>than it is when I was a kid. Like the<br>world has just figured out how to make<br>food better. Like we, you know, know how<br>to we figured out organic vegetables or<br>whatever it is. I don't know. It just<br>tastes much better. And like I think<br>that's great. I don't want to go back to<br>eating like the frozen carrots or<br>whatever.<br>Yeah, I guess that's a good point. But<br>then there's some like I saw this thing<br>the other day. It was like a K. They had<br>like one of those robo kitchens or<br>whatever. You know when you order food<br>from like something Dash or whatever and<br>then you uh but it's like Hank's ribs<br>and then it's like Marty's Pizza and<br>then it's like Susan's salami shop but<br>they're all the same place, you know?<br>And when you get that from window Dash<br>Yeah.<br>Uh you don't you don't like you feel<br>like something's missing, right? You're<br>like, "Ah, this is fake. I can tell. I<br>get less enjoyment." You would rather<br>get that food from like the dude who's<br>been making it and perfecting it on the,<br>you know, that little pizza shop on the<br>corner for the last 20 years, right?<br>Because that's like part of like that<br>dude is part of the experience. That<br>authenticity is part of the experience.<br>I don't think that goes away with the<br>like fake robotic thing.<br>Okay.<br>Yeah. Because I think I start to feel<br>like we're in this universe where it's<br>like you're walking down the street or<br>something and like a Whimo goes by and<br>it's like eat now and you're like but<br>and you already did eat. It's just got a<br>bad reading or something. It's got a bad<br>valve in it or something. You're like<br>yelling at it. There's nobody in there.<br>And you're like, "I already ate." And<br>it's like, "Sit down and eat now." And<br>it just like [ __ ] uses like a t-shirt<br>cannon to just like shoot a burrito at<br>you. And then you're sitting there,<br>you're eating that, you know? And then<br>the GLP car goes by, right?<br>It says, "I can help you out."<br>Yes. And it's like obviously you've<br>overe and you're like, "I didn't even<br>want to eat. That thing's messed up,<br>right? You're yelling at a car that has<br>no driver in it." And then it shoots you<br>with three GLP1 darts in the neck. And<br>now your wife don't even recognize you<br>when you get home or whatever. You know,<br>the fact that you find this so<br>off-putting, I think is a sign for<br>optimism.<br>Yeah.<br>Like a good point.<br>You're wired. You're going to be<br>resistant to that. That's not going to<br>make you happy. That's not going to make<br>other people happy. Now, maybe we get<br>tricked. Like social media tricked us<br>for a while. We got too addicted to<br>feeds, whatever. But we realized like<br>actually this is not helping me be my<br>best. you know, like doing the<br>equivalent of getting the like<br>burrito cannon into my mouth on my phone<br>at night, like that's not making me<br>long-term happy,<br>right?<br>And that's not helping me like really<br>accomplish my true goals in life. And I<br>think if AI does that, people will<br>reject it. However, if Chhat GBT really<br>helps you to figure out what your true<br>goals in life are and then accomplish<br>those, you know, it says, "Hey, you've<br>said you want to be a better father or a<br>better, you know, you want to be in<br>better shape or you, you know, want to<br>like grow your business. Um,<br>if you want, we can change that goal and<br>I can help you scroll TikTok all night<br>or, you know, eat the burritos or<br>whatever and I'll give you the GLP1<br>shots and I'll make you as healthy as<br>you can. But like maybe instead I can<br>try to help convince you you should go<br>for a run tonight." M<br>and I think if AI feels like it is<br>helping you try to accomplish your goals<br>and be your best that will feel very<br>different than the last generation of<br>technology.<br>Yeah. And you know what and that's where<br>I'm like and that's where a kid growing<br>up right now to them that would probably<br>some young people might be like that<br>makes the most sense. I'm a little older<br>generation might be like oh that seems a<br>little but that's always how things are<br>generation to generation.<br>Always how it goes.<br>Yeah you're right. And maybe this is<br>just like a quicker evolution of things<br>and for young people it's going to make<br>so much sense and for older people it's<br>and you're just going to be like get off<br>my you know avatar lawn or something you<br>know. Um<br>but that's the way of societal progress.<br>That's just how it goes.<br>Good point.<br>You know it's an interesting time for<br>business.<br>Tariff and trade policies are dynamic.<br>Supply chains are squeezed. And cash<br>flow is tighter than ever. If your<br>business can't adapt in real time,<br>you're in a world of hurt. You need<br>total visibility from global shipments<br>to tariff impacts to real-time cash<br>flow. That's Netswuite by Oracle, your<br>AI powered business management suite.<br>Trusted by over 42,000 businesses,<br>Netswuite is the number one cloud ERP<br>for many reasons. It brings accounting,<br>financial management, inventory, HR into<br>one suite. You have one source of truth,<br>giving you the visibility and control<br>you need to make quick decisions.<br>Netswuite helps you know what's stuck,<br>what it's costing you, and how to pivot<br>fast. If I needed this product, this is<br>what I would use. Netswuite by Oracle,<br>one of the most trusted companies in the<br>world. It's one system, full control.<br>Tame the chaos with Netswuite. If your<br>revenues are at least in the seven<br>figures, download the free ebook,<br>Navigating Global Trade: Three Insights<br>for Leaders, at netswuite.com.<br>That's netswuite nesui<br>t.comtheo.<br>Um there's there's definitely been a lot<br>of talk about like tech and governance,<br>right? And I know we touched on it a<br>little bit earlier. Um, and there were<br>people like lobbying in the uh in Trump<br>had a big beautiful bill for like a<br>10-year ban on uh state legislation<br>against AI. Um, what do you think about<br>that? Like letting it be this rogue<br>space.<br>There have to be some rules here. There<br>has to be some like guidelines. There<br>has to be some sort of regulation at<br>some point. I think it'd be a mistake to<br>let each state do this kind of crazy<br>patchwork of stuff. I think like one<br>countrywide approach would be much<br>easier for us to be able to innovate and<br>still like have some guardrails, but<br>there have to be some guardrails.<br>Do you have you met with governments and<br>like government leaders to have<br>discussions like that? Like are they<br>meeting with you because they might they<br>Yeah. Yeah, they do meet with us. They<br>haven't done anything big yet, but<br>they're talking about it.<br>Do they meet with you to try to keep<br>information out of um you guys' data?<br>we, you know, for all of the paranoia<br>about that, I don't think we've ever had<br>someone come say like, I don't want it<br>to say this negative thing about this<br>politician or this whatever. Uh<br>the the concerns are like, what is this<br>going to do to our kids? You know, are<br>they going to stop learning? There's a<br>lot of concerns about that. Um is this<br>going to spread fake information? Is<br>this going to influence elections? But<br>we've never had the like you can't say<br>bad things about the president, Trump,<br>or whatever.<br>Um, what about<br>bias is a big like they they do want to<br>know like, you know, if it'll say bad<br>things about one candidate, it'll say<br>bad things about the other.<br>Could you guys make it do one or the<br>other? Like can you guys favor the back<br>end or like<br>We totally could. I mean, we don't, but<br>we totally could.<br>You could.<br>Yeah.<br>Wow.<br>Yeah. I think like I<br>How do we know you How do you like do we<br>give you guys lie detector tests? Like<br>how do we know?<br>We have to like test the system. I mean,<br>you can anyone can like test the AI and<br>say if I say this, does it say this? If<br>I say that. Oh, that's a good point. But<br>you you touch on a really big point here<br>which is like hundreds of millions of<br>people talk to ChachiBT every day and it<br>probably has like a big impact on<br>what they believe and so I think<br>society's interest in making sure that<br>we are you know a responsible neutral<br>party should be huge. Now people do test<br>it a lot and I think that's good but<br>like we got to be held to a very high<br>standard there. But how do we like just<br>as regular people or how do like regular<br>people just hold you guys to a high<br>standard? Like is it the I guess it's<br>politicians responsibility or I mean<br>these guys are idiots on their like<br>80year-old dudes giving thumbs up. That<br>one guy couldn't get the Wi-Fi on.<br>Remember that guy? That guy couldn't get<br>the Wi-Fi on. So I'm like how do we<br>I mean there's a huge amount of people<br>that test our systems all the time<br>looking for any errors, any bias, any<br>anything.<br>I guess that's a good point is we can<br>test this.<br>You can tell. Yeah.<br>Right. people can test it on this end.<br>Um,<br>as as AI grows, like how big do data<br>centers need to be?<br>Is that a concern of you guys?<br>I went recently to one of our new data<br>centers under construction in Abene,<br>Texas.<br>This is about like a approximately 1<br>gawatt facility. Huge. You know, it'll<br>be the biggest data center ever built by<br>the time it's done. And you stand in the<br>middle of that and the scale of this<br>project<br>just hits you. so big. That's like one<br>little That's like one little part of<br>it,<br>dude. That's like eight Costco.<br>Uh, you know, there's like 5,000 people<br>there doing construction on it and this<br>thing is just standing up, making<br>progress every day.<br>And you stand in the middle of this.<br>And are you in a chariot or whatever?<br>Like, how do you even<br>You're like in a little ATV.<br>Oh, okay.<br>Uh, it's like a dirty kind of<br>construction site. Um, but it the scale<br>of this thing and then you kind of go in<br>every room and you look at all the<br>cables, the power, the cooling systems,<br>rack after rack after ser of server of<br>servers. It's humongous. There's like<br>they're standing up these like power<br>plants right in the middle of it.<br>There's<br>Oh, yeah.<br>It's crazy.<br>It looks It starts to make our planet<br>look like um a software board, like a<br>It does. You know, when you see it from<br>the air, I was really struck by that.<br>But I was like, "This looks like the<br>motherboard of a computer."<br>Yeah, it looks like the motherboard of a<br>computer. You start to see like how the<br>planets in like a lot of these like uh<br>sci-fi movies, a lot of them look have<br>that R2-D2 look on the outside of them<br>because they've been<br>covered in data centers.<br>Yeah. Which is kind of wild. Do you know<br>where we're going and you're not telling<br>us? Do you<br>I don't I don't.<br>You promise, dude?<br>I don't know. I mean, I have all my<br>guesses. Like I do guess that a lot of<br>the world gets covered in data centers<br>over time. Do you really?<br>But I don't know cuz maybe we put them<br>in space. Like maybe we build a big<br>Dyson sphere on the solar system and<br>say, "Hey, actually makes no sense to<br>put these on Earth."<br>Yeah.<br>I wish I had like more concrete answers<br>for you,<br>but like we're stumbling through this.<br>We maybe, you know, have a little bit<br>higher confidence than the average<br>person or can but there's so much we<br>don't know yet.<br>No, I that's the craziest thing about<br>you, Sam. And and I I think this is a<br>compliment somehow, dear God. And it<br>Yeah, it is a compliment. You're like<br>It's like you're like, "Come with me<br>through the universe." And you're like,<br>people are like, "What's it like?" And<br>you're like, "I don't know exactly, but<br>and then we're all go." It's like we're<br>all going. It's like, um, I don't know.<br>You're just somehow the most like uh<br>you're this like this charming kind of<br>terminator. It feels like, and I hate to<br>say Terminator, that's a crazy term, but<br>like uh but you're this like I'm like,<br>"Okay, I'm curious. You somehow seem so<br>optimistic about it. I'm it it adds to<br>my curiosity." When I was a kid, I<br>assumed that there were always some<br>adults in the room. Someone had a plan.<br>Someone knew everything that was going<br>to happen. Someone had it all figured<br>out.<br>And I sort of think why people like<br>conspiracy theories is it's nice to<br>think that someone's got a plan. It's<br>nice to think someone that<br>uh, you know, has it all figured out.<br>And then I got a little bit older and I<br>sort of started to suspect there are no<br>adults in the room. No one People have<br>plans. I have plans, but no one has all<br>the answers. No one knows where it's all<br>going to go. Uh, and now that I am the<br>adult in the room, I can say with<br>certainty, no one knows where it's all<br>going to go. Like, I'm the guy in the<br>room and I have some guesses and I have<br>some plans. Uh, and we're working really<br>hard. But like, you know, we try to<br>always say what we think the<br>possibilities are,<br>what we think is most likely. Often<br>we're right. Sometimes it's in the<br>broader set. And sometimes it goes in a<br>totally different direction than<br>anything we thought. And you know, we<br>keep trying to make progress, figure out<br>more. We try to tell people, not just<br>tell, we try to show people by like<br>deploying these systems and say, "You<br>can go use it. Don't just take our word<br>for it. Try it out. See what it can do."<br>Yeah.<br>Um, but like I can say with conviction,<br>the world needs a lot more processing<br>power. But if that looks like tiling<br>data centers on Earth, which I think is<br>what it looks like in the short term, in<br>the long term also, or we do go build<br>them in space, I don't know. It sounds<br>cool to try to build it in space, but<br>also really hard.<br>What about like the environmental<br>effects of those and stuff? Like there's<br>been like, you know, there's been<br>articles written and I don't know how<br>much of it is real or not real, right?<br>Because who knows what to believe, but<br>you'd have to think that, you know, it<br>takes water to cool them, right? It<br>takes power to power them. You know, um<br>there's some in like Arizona and Iowa<br>that there's been like repercussions<br>within the environments there in the<br>communities. uh what and and a lot of<br>those companies don't have to report<br>those things because it's considered<br>proprietary, you know. Um what do you<br>think about those fears?<br>Um<br>or how do you guys manage that? Like do<br>you guys talk about that? Do you meet<br>with environmentalists? Like what does<br>that all look like?<br>I think we need to get to fusion as fast<br>as possible.<br>Get to what?<br>Nuclear fusion. Uh I think that is the<br>Oh [ __ ] What is it? where you basically<br>knock two small atoms together and it<br>makes a bunch of energy but no carbon,<br>very clean, doesn't generate, you know,<br>doesn't really harm the environment and<br>power can become like abundant and<br>pretty limitless on Earth and we get out<br>of all the current problems we're in.<br>Are you guys investing in that?<br>We are and I think AI can help us figure<br>it out even faster. So that's like a,<br>you know, if you have to like burn a<br>little bit more gas in the short term,<br>but you figure out, you know, the future<br>of energy with that AI, it's a huge win.<br>And would you guys sell tickets to that<br>or what do you think that would be like?<br>Yeah, I think we<br>are going to watch that [ __ ] I mean,<br>yeah, people go to monster trucks. You<br>don't think they'll roll up to watch<br>those two things hit each other?<br>The atoms hit each other. It's pretty<br>hard to watch two atoms hit each other,<br>but maybe with the, you know, somehow we<br>can do it.<br>Or what if they did like those sperm<br>races where they put them under those<br>big things or whatever?<br>I love those sperm races.<br>Kind of crazy.<br>I<br>I'm like, dude, there's enough of that<br>going on.<br>Look, I think the<br>uh Yeah, there will be some way to watch<br>Fusion. And it'll be awesome and it'll<br>be like loud and bright and theatrical<br>and it'll be making huge amounts of<br>energy. Um even if you can't watch the<br>two atoms hit, you'll watch them<br>collectively produce a fireworks. Um<br>but we're going to need that. Do you<br>think if we're going to get to<br>I think so.<br>If we're going to get to uh AGI or or if<br>we're going to get to super<br>intelligence, do we need that?<br>I bet we can get there without it. But<br>to provide it at the scale that humanity<br>will demand it, I think we do need it<br>because people the the the desire to use<br>this stuff, people are just going to<br>want more and more and more. And<br>eventually like the the two things that<br>I think matter most, the two kind of<br>critical inputs are intelligence and<br>energy. The ability to like have great<br>ideas, come up with plans and then<br>energy is the ability to like make them<br>happen in the world and also to run the<br>intelligence. And I think the story of<br>the next couple of decades is going to<br>be that demand for these goes up and up<br>and up to crazy heights. And we better<br>find out how to produce a lot.<br>Otherwise, someone's going to feel like<br>they're getting screwed.<br>Yeah.<br>Dang, dude. I can't tell if I'm excited<br>or scared. Maybe I'm both. And maybe<br>it's all the same.<br>You have to be both. You have to be<br>both. I don't know if it's the same<br>thing or not. I think it is kind of like<br>they do feel related to me always. Um,<br>but I don't think anyone<br>could honestly look at the trajectory<br>humanity is on and not feel both excited<br>and scared.<br>Yeah.<br>And maybe that's always been the way<br>throughout time. And also then this is<br>where we are. What are we going what are<br>you going to do? You know, like this is<br>where we are. And so that's what's going<br>on. Um,<br>I I saw where you and Joe Rogan spoke<br>about there possibly being one day like<br>an AI president, you know, where like<br>what if you had this one kind of let's<br>just use the term supercomputer or this<br>agent that was created that knew all the<br>information and knew all of the problems<br>and knew the best ways to solve them.<br>Um,<br>I is that do you think that something<br>like that is becoming more and more<br>possible one day? I don't know<br>everything that it takes to be a<br>president, but I do know it like takes a<br>lot of things that I don't have to do<br>and that that people are going to well<br>maybe I could reframe it to an AI CEO of<br>OpenAI because I do know what that job<br>is like.<br>Okay,<br>that should be possible someday. Maybe<br>not even that far. Like I think the idea<br>to look at an organization to make<br>really good decisions, there's a lot of<br>things you can imagine that an AI CEO of<br>OpenAI could do that I can't I can't<br>talk to every person at OpenAI every<br>day. I can't talk to every user of<br>CHACHT every day. Um I cannot synthesize<br>all that information even if I could.<br>But an AI CEO could do that and it would<br>have better information, more context.<br>It could, you know, massively<br>parallelize this. And I think that would<br>lead to better decisions in many cases.<br>Yeah. Because wouldn't a supercomputer<br>something that has all knowledge, which<br>you think we'll get there?<br>I do.<br>You do.<br>Or I mean all knowledge is a hard thing<br>to say. I think it will have vast vast<br>amounts.<br>Will it be able to tell us about God or<br>anything? Do you think?<br>I'm super curious about that. Uh,<br>I think it will be able to help us<br>answer questions about the nature of the<br>universe that we currently can't. And I<br>feel very confused and very unsatisfied<br>with our current answers. And there is<br>clearly, to me at least, something going<br>on well beyond our current capability to<br>understand. And I would love to know<br>what that is.<br>Do you think it could help us learn<br>more? Yes.<br>Would it does I wonder if God has a<br>chat GBT or whatever or just wonder he<br>got he has the first one or whatever.<br>But yeah, I'm just so curious like how<br>would that work? Um how does how does<br>Open AI make money?<br>We sell Chacht. You pay 20 bucks a<br>month. Some people pay 200, but very few<br>or relatively few<br>perverts. I think they are<br>uh mostly hopefully they're just working<br>super hard and using it for to be more<br>productive at their job.<br>And then we also sell an API<br>so businesses can use and they like pay<br>us every time they make an API call.<br>Okay. Um<br>do you think uh like there's a lot of<br>these like kind of tech lords that are<br>rocking right now, right? And you get<br>thrown in there, you know,<br>sometimes I'm like on the periphery.<br>Yeah.<br>Yeah. Or you get certainly like Yeah.<br>like these council these councilmen kind<br>of like do you think there's bad artists<br>um amongst like these tech lords in<br>these in these AI realms? Do you think<br>there's bad artists out there?<br>What does bad artist mean?<br>Just like people that want for evil and<br>not for good.<br>I think most people<br>don't wake up I think very few people<br>wake up every morning saying I'm going<br>to try to make the world a worse place<br>or I'm going to actively try to do evil.<br>Clearly some do, but I think most of<br>these people running the big tech<br>efforts are not in that category. I<br>think people get blinded by ambition. I<br>think people get blinded by competition.<br>I think people<br>get caught up like very well-meaning<br>people can get caught up in very<br>negative incentives. Negative for<br>society as a whole.<br>Um, and by the way, I include I include<br>us in this. Like we can totally get<br>caught up in we can be very well-meaning<br>but get caught up in some incentive and<br>it can lead to a bad outcome. Um, so<br>that's kind of what I would say. I think<br>people come in with good intentions.<br>They clearly sometimes do bad stuff.<br>There's a lot of talk about like<br>Palunteer and Peter Teal and their<br>company about being like a um, you know,<br>they got a deal with from Trump about to<br>have this surveillance or not a<br>surveillance state, but to create a<br>database on most of uh, America, but I<br>it starts to feel like a surveillance<br>state, you know. Um, do you feel like we<br>will need something like that in order<br>for uh the future? You know, do you feel<br>like something like that is included in<br>the future?<br>So, I don't know about that<br>specifically. I I mean, I think<br>Palanteer and Peter do a lot of great<br>stuff. Uh, but I again, I can't comment<br>on this specifically.<br>I'll say generally I am worried that the<br>more AI in the world we have the more<br>surveillance the world is going to want<br>cuz the tools so powerful the government<br>will say like how do we know people<br>aren't using it to make bombs or<br>bioweapons or whatever<br>and the answer will be more surveillance<br>and I'm very afraid of that. So I don't<br>I think we really have to defend<br>rights to privacy. I don't think those<br>are absolute. I'm like totally willing<br>to compromise some privacy for<br>collective safety, but history is that<br>the government takes that way too far<br>and I'm really nervous about that.<br>Do you guys feel like the new government<br>kind of or do you feel like the<br>government is still like a real thing?<br>I don't feel like the government anyway.<br>You don't? when the US government bombed<br>Iran recently. I remember waking up that<br>morning and seeing that news or whatever<br>time it was. Uh,<br>and I was like, "Oh,<br>that's what actual power looks like."<br>You know, that we're in like a maybe<br>someday we get there. But it was like a<br>really stark reminder of however<br>important we think this is. It's like<br>there are people that have just like<br>this unimaginable power and might and<br>can kind of do whatever they want. And<br>that's definitely not us. Yeah. Yeah. I<br>think that's been a lot in the Middle<br>East recently is just like it's just<br>such a gross displays over there<br>sometimes of inhumity.<br>Absolutely.<br>It's sad. Um what do you think a guy<br>like then like Palanteer or Peter Teal's<br>endgame is? Do you think he has an<br>endgame? Because I think he seems like a<br>dark lord to a lot of us and it's like<br>he does you think he has an endgame that<br>is like happy?<br>I think Peter is one of the most<br>brilliant people I've ever met. Uh I<br>think<br>Oh, he's smarter than me. That's for<br>sure.<br>I think he does get characterized in the<br>media as this like evil mastermind<br>as a villain. He does. I never met him.<br>I met him. I We're very close friends.<br>Uh I<br>I should have brought it up then.<br>No, it's all good. No, no, no, no. It's<br>all good. I I I don't feel that energy<br>from him, but I at all like I<br>in fact I think he's been one of the<br>most important forces at least in my<br>life for questioning assumptions about<br>the path that society was on and maybe I<br>was like oh I thought this was all going<br>well but maybe we are in a tax<br>stagnation and maybe we really do have<br>this huge economic challenge that no<br>one's talking about and and so I think<br>these people who are just very<br>that think very differently. He would<br>call it very contrarian is<br>super important to a society. Now on the<br>other hand um<br>you know maybe he<br>um maybe he sometimes does things like<br>this that don't do him any favors when<br>it<br>you would prefer the human race to<br>endure, right?<br>Uh,<br>you're hesitant.<br>Well, I Yes.<br>I don't know. I I would<br>I would um<br>This is a long hesitation. So many<br>longesitation. There's so many questions<br>and<br>should the human race survive?<br>Uh, yes. Okay. But, but<br>God, I mean, 22 seconds it took him.<br>Yeah. So if he were if he were maybe<br>like<br>a more typical person, he would have<br>just said an immediate yes and then said<br>what else he wanted to say. And it took<br>me a while with him to understand that<br>his brain just works differently.<br>And society needs some of that. Like he<br>has these super different takes and then<br>he doesn't have maybe the circuit in his<br>brain that makes him immediately say yes<br>and then say what he was going to say.<br>But you know<br>his processors. Yeah.<br>I'm very grateful he exists because he<br>thinks of things no one else does. Yeah,<br>I you know, yeah, you have you want<br>there novel thinkers have changed things<br>throughout time. Sometimes for the<br>better and sometimes for the worse,<br>sometimes for the indifferent, but novel<br>thinkers have have you've always like I<br>don't know, it's always been part of<br>humanity.<br>I'm probably super different and super<br>weird relative to most people, but you<br>know, maybe I have some ideas as part of<br>that that are like valuable to society<br>collectively. And if I had this sort of<br>very standard mindset, I wouldn't.<br>That's a good point.<br>Yeah. Well, do you think, and I'm just<br>going to ask you, bro, honestly, do you<br>think a lot of these guys have I mean,<br>you know, it's not like, you know, Love<br>on the Spectrum is like a big show,<br>right? People, you know, it's like, and<br>those people are in love [ __ ] Every<br>half people I know are just, you know,<br>barely, you know, they're crying in<br>parking lots or whatever. But, um, you<br>know, their spousal issues, whatever.<br>But anyway, what I'm saying is, do you<br>think that uh some of the creators now<br>and some of the the tech lords are<br>almost have some tech built into them?<br>Like almost a I don't want to say like<br>an autism, dude, cuz<br>you couldn't say that.<br>Okay.<br>I think so. I mean, yeah. I I you know,<br>to take the kind of like harshest look<br>at us collectively, I can, you know, are<br>we a little autistic on the whole? I I<br>would say probably.<br>Okay, dude. I knew that [ __ ]<br>But that's all right.<br>No, no, that's what I'm saying. years<br>ago I was meet first time I ever met<br>some people with autism I was like dude<br>these guys are computers right like a<br>lot of these guys are just you know<br>they're some they're kind of like a<br>little bit of a cyborg in some way in<br>the way that they think right<br>you know look I'm you are this like<br>impossibly charming cool guy and I'm<br>like kind of a lot more computery than<br>you<br>not much though<br>we can have it we can still like<br>figure it out<br>yeah and I I really don't mean as an<br>offense but I think that we may need<br>that in people to get whatever's next in<br>the world you You think that's<br>realistic?<br>Yeah. I think society needs like this<br>very broad diversity of people. You need<br>some people like me. You need some<br>people who are more normal than me. You<br>don't want too many of me. But like<br>Yeah. Yeah. You don't want too many of<br>anyone thing. Yeah.<br>Yeah. I'm just always I'm like, "God,<br>yeah, these people are able to see<br>things differently and quantify things<br>differently." Do you always feel<br>because some tech guys are they just<br>have a different understanding of<br>possibility, right? A different<br>understanding of feeling and thing. Do<br>you feel human all the time?<br>I do feel human all the time, but I feel<br>like I I have noticed that I think<br>extremely differently about the future,<br>about exponential change, about<br>compounding technology than than almost<br>anybody else that I kind of come across<br>in regular life. So<br>that's cool.<br>I feel extremely human. I feel like, you<br>know, driven by crazy emotions as much<br>as anybody. But I am like very aware<br>that I have a different lens than a lot<br>of people. Have you met some people in<br>tech space and you're like, "Whoa, that<br>guy is only like six or seven%. He's<br>low. He not a lot of human in it."<br>Yes.<br>Yeah. Okay.<br>Um, do you think it's inevitable that AI<br>or AGI will merge into our bodies? I<br>know you've talked about this before in<br>the past. As things go along and advance<br>quickly, do you start to see that a<br>little bit differently? I know you've<br>talked about how you don't think it's<br>like a glasses thing or something like<br>that.<br>I'll tell you a fascinating story.<br>Okay. I was with a friend last week<br>and did I offend you by asking you that?<br>Not at all. I thought that was a great<br>answer and I really appreciate it<br>because yeah, some of us are we can't<br>conceptualize sometimes how you guys are<br>thinking. It can't I I can't even like<br>we feel like we can't figure it out, you<br>know? So, it feels like it's almost like<br>a unique it's like are we all evolving<br>into this new kind of species and that's<br>where we meet the future at anyway and<br>you're just like the dang Paul River out<br>there, you It's like<br>for better or for worse, it's I think<br>whenever you see someone who thinks<br>differently than you, it's like like I'm<br>fascinated by you. I don't quite<br>understand how you do your thing. I know<br>I couldn't do it. I know you like just<br>understand the world differently than<br>me, but I think that's cool and I'm just<br>like all right, I'm glad.<br>Yeah, that's how I feel.<br>I think it's just thanks for just<br>talking to me about it cuz sometimes I<br>think I get afraid to say that.<br>I don't think I don't think you should<br>be afraid. I don't think anybody would<br>be offended by that. Um, I was talking<br>to this friend of mine though about how<br>he uses CHBT and he's been using it a<br>lot for a couple years now and he<br>noticed recently that he start he<br>started giving it personality tests.<br>He'd upload any personality test he<br>could find to Chachib and say based on<br>what you know about me,<br>answer this. And he had never he had<br>never like told it here's my<br>personality. it had just learned it from<br>the questions he asked over the years<br>and on everyone he tried it got exactly<br>the answer and the exactly the outcome<br>he would get<br>and so that's not like he didn't get<br>uploaded he didn't get merged he didn't<br>plug something into his brain but<br>somehow like the pattern of him had<br>gotten imprinted into this AI<br>wow maybe we're not as complex as we<br>think we are<br>or maybe we are and AI can just learn it<br>really well AI can like represent these<br>very complex things. One of those two.<br>But that was a real moment for me of<br>like, wow, you know, the merge maybe can<br>happen in a very different way than we<br>thought.<br>Yeah. Yeah. Because you think of it as<br>this thing kind of taking over your<br>system and like, you know, your dad<br>presses a button and you can't use the<br>car, you know, you can't move for a<br>month or whatever.<br>Yeah. I think it it kind of has that<br>sort of energy. Um,<br>you just you just finished the<br>acquisition of this a little bit more<br>like day-to-day business. You just<br>finished the acquisition of Johnny Ives<br>um hardware company um<br>their hardware company. So clearly you<br>have some like thoughts or<br>interest in how like hardware and AI<br>match up for each other in humanity.<br>What was that about?<br>There have been two revolutions in<br>computers in history. There was the<br>keyboard, mouse and screen. that thing<br>that was invented down the street in I<br>think the 70s uh where<br>you know the people at Xerox Park<br>figured out what has become the modern<br>computer interface and then in the early<br>to mid the early 2000s I guess Apple<br>figured out this idea of touch on a<br>device and really those have been the<br>two big ones.<br>I think now there can be a third. I<br>think AI is it so changes the game that<br>you can design a new kind of computer<br>based off of a really smart AI where you<br>can give a complex instruction to a<br>system. It can go do it. You'll trust<br>that it gets it right. You'll trust it<br>to act on your behalf. It could like<br>maybe be aware of everything going on in<br>this room and it could like kind of not<br>just be on or off but like lightly get<br>our attention if it wants us to know<br>something or maybe more aggressively get<br>our attention. It could really be like<br>following what we're talking about here<br>and remind us both of things later. Um,<br>and current hardware just can't do that.<br>The current kind of computers we have, I<br>don't think are a fair, they don't honor<br>what the technology is not really<br>capable of. So, I want to make a totally<br>new kind of computer that isn't meant<br>for this world of AI helping you all the<br>time. I'm super excited about it.<br>You are?<br>Yeah.<br>Um,<br>I you guys this thing called agent that<br>you guys had showed me earlier. I can<br>take this out if I mention it. I wasn't<br>supposed to. It was pretty fascinating.<br>It was cool to see it.<br>It is. Yeah. This This is a new thing<br>that we just did. Um, but the idea that<br>an AI can not just answer questions for<br>you, but it can go actually do stuff on<br>your behalf as your agent. It can go do<br>research for you. It can go book<br>something for you. It can go buy<br>something for you. It can go like, you<br>know, change some things in the world<br>for you and think more and use tools.<br>Like<br>I think most people think of ChachiBT as<br>this app that you can ask anything, but<br>it'll become this thing that can do<br>anything and that'll change how you use<br>computers. It'll change how you do<br>things in your life, you know, if you<br>Yeah, I was watching the guy do it and<br>it was just kind of fascinating. He was<br>showing like one time he'd went to like<br>a website and bought something that he<br>needed. And then now moving forward, he<br>could just be like, "Hey, go to this and<br>make sure to get me these or go to uh go<br>here and see go to the restaurants I<br>like and see if there's any table<br>available for 7:00 p.m. tomorrow." And<br>it was able to book it and do<br>everything. It was like having a<br>secretary right there.<br>It totally when I first started using<br>it, I was like, it was one of those<br>moments where I could tell that, oh man,<br>doing this the oldfashioned way is going<br>to feel like the stone age so quickly. M<br>you know I'm going to like try to tell<br>people someday like<br>do you remember when if we wanted to do<br>something we actually had to go like<br>click around the internet and like you<br>know look for a table and then if we<br>wanted to move it we had to like call<br>the restaurant and that's going to be<br>unimaginable because of course you just<br>tell your AI to do those things for you.<br>Yeah. Yeah. You feel like you would<br>almost just tell it to go eat too you<br>know<br>that's the fun part.<br>Yeah. Oh yeah. That's<br>No one likes booking the table. Everyone<br>loves sitting there eating.<br>That's a good point. Huh. Yeah. Yeah. It<br>won't take away the fun part. That's the<br>thing I think you got to remember that<br>it won't take away the fun part.<br>You're going to do the things you want<br>to do. There's a lot of things in your<br>life you probably don't love doing. Like<br>booking an open table is maybe one of<br>them.<br>Yeah. And then you'll have like<br>oldfashioned be like I'll book it. You<br>know, you're like, "Dad, what do you<br>mean? Get off the phone or whatever.<br>Don't call him you freaking weirdo. Use<br>a freaking use your agent."<br>Totally.<br>Like I'll book it. Um there's there's<br>like a lot of like you know Zuckerberg<br>recently like kind of was poaching guys<br>around town, right? And I'll say it, you<br>don't have to say it. allegedly. I'm not<br>saying he did. He hired one of my<br>buddies. But what I'm saying is um<br>there's this hypothetical that he was<br>like kind of poaching guys around town.<br>Is that did it did that feel like a<br>mafioso move in the community? What was<br>that like out here on out here in the uh<br>tech trenches?<br>I mean,<br>you know, they want to get into the AI<br>game. I understand it. So, and if he's<br>going to do this, he needs to hire some<br>people. So, bring it. So, bring it.<br>So, bring it. Yeah.<br>[ __ ] yeah, dude. I'm gonna upload myself<br>into this plant in a second. Okay. No,<br>but no. Does it do you kind of like the<br>competition? Is that fun?<br>It is to It's Yeah, compet Like winning<br>is fun. Yeah. And I expect to win.<br>And you got to love the compet. That's<br>part of it, right? It makes it fun.<br>I think what it would be like if we<br>didn't have competition and drama in the<br>world.<br>It would be so boring.<br>Could uh<br>actually, can I say one more thing about<br>that? the best improvement I made in my<br>life in my like personally in my life<br>and for my own happiness over the last<br>couple years. A lot of bad [ __ ] has<br>happened to us. To me, it's been like a<br>crazy intense experience. And I just<br>decided that I was going to like learn<br>to love the hard parts. I was like, you<br>know what? If I'm in this crazy moment,<br>if I'm in this like crazy thing, if I<br>like feel my emotions are high, I'm<br>going to like make myself learn to be<br>grateful for that, to love it, to find<br>enjoyment in the in the tension, in the<br>competition, whatever. And actually it<br>worked and it it kind of needed to work<br>cuz like so many things go wrong in any<br>given day. But I was like thinking about<br>you know someday I'll be like retired on<br>my ranch. I'll be sitting there watching<br>the plants grow and I'll be missing the<br>excitement and the drama and the anger<br>and the tension and the whatever. And so<br>I'm going to be like grateful for it and<br>like learn to have fun with it.<br>And now it like I cannot believe that<br>that mind shift mindset shift worked but<br>it did. And were there practices like in<br>a moment like say like a moment came up<br>like some of the early ones, right?<br>Because I agree with you that like<br>having some mindset like I used to hate<br>traveling like every week traveling for<br>work but then one day I was like dude<br>you have to travel for work.<br>Deal with it.<br>You may as well find you may as well<br>[ __ ] cuz for years you've been just and<br>right there suddenly it wasn't bad<br>anymore.<br>That happened for me too.<br>Was there like a just a practice or was<br>it just this verbal reminder like I'm<br>going to do this.<br>I just kept saying it to myself.<br>I was just like someday you'll miss<br>these moments. you may as well find a<br>way to like find the<br>happiness and kind of great gratitude<br>for them in the moment.<br>Yeah.<br>Um, a lot of these guys have bunkers.<br>Zucky has a bunky. I know that somewhere<br>out in Hawaii. People have bunkers. Do<br>you have a bunker?<br>I have like underground concrete heavy<br>reinforced basements, but I don't have<br>anything I would call<br>Hold on, hold on, hold on, dude. Look,<br>I'll let you I'll let you keep me on the<br>ropes in a lot of this conversation, but<br>I am going to call that out as a dang<br>bunker, dude. Sam, that's a bunker.<br>Wasn't there a basement in a bunker? A<br>one a place you could hide when it all<br>goes off or whatever.<br>I No. Yeah, I have been thinking I<br>should really do a good version of one<br>of those, but I don't I don't have like<br>a I don't have what I would call a<br>bunker, but it has been on my mind. Not<br>because of AI, but just because of like<br>people are dropping bombs in the world<br>again. And you know, like<br>That's a good point. That's a very good<br>point. Yeah. Basin right there. Part of<br>a house building typically used for<br>storage, laundry, extra living, space,<br>or utilities. And then bunker built for<br>protection. Often military or emergency<br>related myth meant to withstand<br>explosions.<br>We don't have that yet. Do you guys do<br>this just for me or do you use chatbt as<br>the fact check?<br>We did this just for you.<br>I appreciate it.<br>Um,<br>this is nice. If could we ever could we<br>ever have instead of so you start to see<br>say if AI comes over and there's this<br>whole new kind of like um you know I<br>believe that one of the things that's<br>been happening there's been like a lot<br>of like ICE raids and people getting<br>like taken out of their homes and um uh<br>you know um there's been a lot of<br>crackdown cuz part of me believes that<br>they're having to get everybody<br>documented or online basically because<br>they're going to start to have this p<br>like uh this like facial recognition<br>everywhere. Like I have this idea of<br>that. So yes, this stuff had to happen<br>because in in a year or year and a half<br>you wouldn't even be able to be outdoors<br>anywhere anywhere without a drone or<br>something noticing you or some camera<br>noticing that you're not supposed to be<br>there or you're not there with<br>documentation, right? Whatever people's<br>thoughts are on that. But just so part<br>of me starts to see like, oh, okay,<br>that's going on. Do you think we could<br>ever then down the line have new<br>countries like delineated by like almost<br>like a new AI landscape? Like remember<br>when on Snapchat if you were in a<br>certain realm you could put like a<br>filter on something and they almost<br>created these new like glo like geo<br>barriers and stuff. Do you think we<br>could potentially be looking at<br>something like that one day?<br>I I know that what you just said is<br>going to happen. I know that we're going<br>to have like cameras on, you know, all<br>over the place and it's going to make<br>the cities way safer because everybody<br>like if you commit a crime, they'll have<br>like a facial recognition hit on you<br>right away. But man, do I find that<br>dystopic? Like you do,<br>of course. Like I, you know, is it like<br>a good trade if it means like people<br>stop getting murdered in the streets?<br>Yeah, sure. We agree to like give up<br>some privacy for that. But it it sits so<br>uncomfortably with me, you know, in like<br>London or whatever. You see those<br>cameras on every street corner<br>and you're just like you get used to it<br>fast.<br>Yeah.<br>But you're just like it feels like<br>privacy is important and and like you<br>you really are like there's nothing I<br>can do to live in the world and avoid<br>all these cameras and maybe it's worth<br>it for society collectively but it it<br>it it feels like we really do give up a<br>lot to get it.<br>But could there one day you think if we<br>had that then we could have whole new<br>countries kind of that were<br>what do you mean by new countries in<br>this case?<br>Like say if there was this new kind of<br>this new like layer right of sur a<br>surveillance layer that's kind of in the<br>in the air<br>then could that be divided into<br>different realms? Oh yes, totally. That<br>can I think there's all kinds of weird<br>ways that that can happen. But but the<br>surveillance layer is so uncomfortable.<br>Oh yeah, it's going to be a nasty<br>blanket. Um is there anything else that<br>you wanted to talk about you wanted to<br>get out that you want me to ask you<br>about?<br>No, that was great.<br>Oh, why are there Why does Chad UBC have<br>that hyphen thing?<br>We we got to do something about that.<br>Um,<br>you know, we have this team that figures<br>out what the model's personality should<br>be like and how it should behave.<br>Mhm.<br>And a lot of users like M dashes, so we<br>added more m dashes. And now I think we<br>have too many M dashes. But that's the<br>answer is it was just like users liked<br>it, we put more in. Now it's like a<br>little bit of a meme and it's kind of<br>it's quite annoying to me. We should we<br>should fix that.<br>But you're thinking about it, too.<br>I think we'll get it fixed very soon.<br>Okay. Uh before you go, Sam, and thank<br>you so much for your time today. It's<br>been awesome. We appreciate it, man. Um,<br>it's helped me get to understand you, I<br>feel like, a lot. I think maybe<br>differently than I I don't know if I had<br>a perception. I didn't know what to<br>think.<br>What's the before and after?<br>Uh, the before was like a little bit<br>like um<br>I guess I almost thought kind of like<br>not as hopeful,<br>but I don't know why. Maybe that's just<br>my own I think it's attaching my own<br>perceptions of what I think about AI and<br>stuff or the possibilities of<br>technology, you know, like that kind of<br>stuff like that energy. I think I was<br>probably attaching it to you and now I<br>feel like like more whimsical about it<br>kind of like um or not whimsical but<br>like<br>let's see what can happen,<br>right? And so I think<br>I think it's not just let's see, it's<br>like let's try to make it good but let's<br>realize that you have to like you don't<br>get to see all the way down the road.<br>You kind of got to go one turn at a time<br>and you like light up a little bit more.<br>Yeah. Yeah. I think Yeah. I don't know.<br>I I just I'm really I'm really thankful<br>for you. Even let me tell you what I<br>thought what what what I was like<br>judging and then uh and then sharing<br>like kind of where I thought what I<br>thought now. Um in 20 years, what do you<br>hope your legacy will be?<br>I you're going to have one.<br>I mean, yeah. I guess I you certainly<br>don't<br>I don't think anyone sits around while<br>they're in like the middle of the game<br>thinking about, you know, what the<br>review is going to be after. At least I<br>don't. Um and<br>but this is a big review you'll have.<br>I have never been that motivated by like<br>what like I want to like play the game<br>the best I can. and I want to like, you<br>know, do the best work I can, have the<br>most fun, have like have the most<br>impact, do the most interesting stuff.<br>But then, you know, you retire and then<br>you die and then like life goes on and<br>people as they're supposed to go on with<br>life and forget about you and this whole<br>thing of like I'm going to live for how<br>I'm remembered after I die and my legacy<br>and like<br>you're dead, you know?<br>Do you have one of those deals where you<br>saving your heart with those people?<br>What do you mean?<br>Your brain, sorry, with the people over<br>there.<br>Cryionics. You have a Cryionic deal?<br>No, I uh<br>Have you been approached about it?<br>I have been approached by it. There was<br>like a<br>That's You haven't even [ __ ]<br>approached me. I haven't asked for<br>anything.<br>There was this like Y company or company<br>that I like helped out a long time ago<br>by like giving some small deposit to and<br>then like I never followed up on it so I<br>don't have anything in place.<br>Okay. But maybe a Yeah, maybe just a<br>down payment somewhere down there. If<br>things get weird, we'll we'll go knock<br>on their door. Um yeah, but thank you so<br>much, man. James Basher says hello. He's<br>a friend of mine. He's a great guy. And<br>uh and we just appreciate you so much,<br>Sam. Thanks for your time.<br>Thanks for thanks for doing this. I<br>really enjoyed it.<br>Thank you for your time today. I thought<br>it was very informative.<br>[Music]<br>And I feel like I must be corner stone.<br>[Music]<br>Oh, but when I reach that ground, I'll<br>share this piece of mind I found. I can<br>feel it in my bones.<br>But it's going to take